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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Baptism with the Holy Spirit

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Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1767


 Re:

Quote:

So.....all those who have not received this "second blessing" are exempted from ministry and the Great commission? After all they do not have the power......?




It is a very good question. The same question can be asked to Jesus as well, in Matt 28-16 Jesus spoke about great commission, but before him being taken up to heaven, he commanded them not to leave Jerusalem. Are these 2 commands contradicting? How can Jesus command them to go all over the world and then after few days tell them not even to leave Jerusalem?

But the apostles did not find those 2 contradicting. Acts 1:4 is just a temporary Hold that Jesus put on Matt 28:16.

How is it applicable in our life? I was born again and baptized in a church, in which they allowed everyone to share after the main message was over. Sometimes I had something to share but I never had the power to share. The desire was there but no power. I kept quiet due to lack of spiritual authority and power to share. But when I received the baptism of holy spirit, the desire to share God's word was coupled with power and gift. Now I lead a Church and share God's word frequently!

God looks at our desire. Every born again believer can share the gospel to his neighbors and witness to them. We are called to be light to the world around us. But to take up a ministry like teaching or traveling evangelism, one has to seek and receive the baptism of Holy Spirit. The God who gives the desire will also equip us. But he does not want us to strive with our human power. That will be unfruitful.


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Sreeram

 2017/8/14 22:23Profile
a-servant
Member



Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re:

Matthew 3:16  And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

It's a declaration of the Father to identify His Son to us
and a practical example of what baptism relates to
It was the typical baptism and Holy Spirit both together

So where is the "second blessing"?

Did you not receive the Holy Spirit when you first
believed and been baptised? Then you haven't
actually been a believer back then, it was some
mental interest of sorts - without faith or reality.

 2017/8/14 22:54Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1767


 Re:

Quote:

If you think in terms of "foreunner"
that will basically mean you will go to be nailed to a cross,
and then your bretheren can receive your spirit within them?




I posted you 4 scriptures to prove that Jesus is our example and we are commanded to live like him. But you seem to deny all of them with human logic, on top of it you accuse me that I have no scriptural backing! I really appreciate your sense of humor!

Even here your logic is a failure. We are called to follow Jesus and he is our forerunner in every aspect. Even in the aspect of carrying the cross. But the sacrifice of Jesus is good enough for the sins of the world, hence we do not need to die again for the sins of the world. But the cross that Jesus carried is also applicable to us. It is also an example to us.

Phil 2-5 - 5 Have this attitude [e]in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, ... 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death [h]on a cross.

Hence from Phil 2-5 to 8, it is clear that Jesus is our example for Humility based on how he died on the cross. We are called to have the humility that Jesus displayed by humbling himself on the cross. How is the cross not an example for us?

Further Jesus also commanded us to take up our cross and follow him. Everything that Jesus did in his life is an example for us to follow. For example he does not need to be baptized of water because he was sinless, there is no need for baptism of repentance. Still he took baptism, to be an example for us.

The Church is commanded to imitate Christ, Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ (1 Cor 11:1). Going by your logic even the Apostle Paul is confused with Christ and Church!

Ephesians 5-1:- Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.

Here it proves that the offering and sacrifice of Christ is an example for us to walk in love as he walked.

1 Peter 2:20 - For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH;

The sacrifice of Christ here is an example for us to show how to suffer.

I have given 3 clear scriptures to show how the death of Christ on the cross is also an EXAMPLE for us for Love, Humility and Suffering. You may disagree with the scriptures I have posted here because of pride, but do not lie openly saying I have no scriptural references. I hope you know where all liars will end!

Quote:

You have NO scripture for your assumption. None.



Let me teach you the basics of placing an argument. The 2nd blessing of Holy Spirit, Baptism of Holy spirit is absolutely scriptural. I posted clear scripture on how Jesus himself received the 2nd blessing and How the Apostles received the 2nd blessing. Now to refute all these events in scripture, you need clear scriptural backing to prove that they are not applicable.

The 1 Cor 12:12 that you are posting here, is a misinterpretation. It does not mean what you said it means. It only means that it is same Holy Spirit that baptizes everyone. The point is same Holy Spirit, not same Baptism. It does not mean everyone has already received baptism of Holy Spirit. For example if I say, everyone in France speak French, it does not mean everyone in France can speak. There will be people born mute in France who cannot speak. It only means among those who can speak, the language is French. It is foolish to interpret this as everyone in France can Speak!

Your arguments reminds me how I once had a discussion with a Muslim apologist. He was refuting the death of Jesus on the cross using Bible. He said Jesus did not die because in Hebrews 5:7, it states that his prayers were answered!

Heb 5-7 :-In the days of His flesh, [d]He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him [e]from death, and He [f]was heard because of His piety.

We know that his interpretation of Heb 5-7 is wrong and cannot be used as a basis to deny an event clearly represented in the scripture. Same way your erroneous interpretation of 1 Cor 12:12, cannot be used to refute the example of Jesus, Apostles and that of many Godly men of past and present.

My advice to you will be, believe whatever you want to believe. You have all rights to do it and remain blind to the higher life. But when you deny a higher experience that God has promised to his disciples openly, then you are preventing others from entering this greater experience. You seriously deserve the woe that Jesus spoke of.

Matt 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven [c]from [d]people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Neither you experience the power of Holy Spirit and also prevent others from experiencing it by openly teaching against it. To tie a big milestone and jumping into a well, would be better than spreading such an erroneous teaching.


Like I said before it is absolutely futile to argue on the Baptism of Holy Spirit with one who denies it. It is like explaining a blind that color exists.


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Sreeram

 2017/8/14 23:07Profile
a-servant
Member



Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re:

RE: " I posted clear scripture on how Jesus himself received the 2nd blessing"

John the Baptist obviously knew who Jesus was
and therefore he should actually get baptised by
him, Jesus said let's do it anyway - the one that
said before Abraham was, I AM - it was for us only
- as an example - not to build a false doctrine
about a "second blessing" - by rationalising
what is written. 2 things you can learn from it:

1) Jesus is the Son authorized by the Father
2) Baptism and Holy Spirit both come together

That "Jesus that needed a baptism in order to be
ready for ministry" is just a man that was not God,
but "became God" - that is another Jesus.


===


I hinted at the following earlier with simple words,
but someone else understood it better than me:

"If having received Him (and this I would equate with having been baptised in Him) I then go and ask THE LORD to give Him to me again, I am declaring that that which I had received was not the Spirit of Truth. By implication it must have been a snake and not a fish! This must be very close to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Perhaps in reality what most people who are receiving this present spirit(s) are saying to THE LORD is "The one you have given me is not satisfying enough, please can I have one more to my liking?"

 2017/8/15 1:38Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 723
Australia

 Re:

Todd,

This is NOT a sarcastic question: Can you tell us what you have achieved in your ministry?


Note: I most certainly do not scoff at this experience that is called the "second blessing". It is a real thing. But to me it is not the baptism with the Holy Spirit.


Add:

My position is:
Everything that we need for our Christian life and ministry is IN Christ and we can draw all we need from Christ by faith and prayer and through the Holy Spirit indwelling us who is with us forever (John 14:16).


To all who disagree with me:

I think it is pointless to continue with this discussion. We are on different tracks and ……never the twain shall meet!



_________________
Jade

 2017/8/15 2:10Profile





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