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MrBillPro Member
Joined: 2005/2/24 Posts: 3422 Texas
| Re: | | Todd, my "common sense" view on this is, the all knowing God knew what he was doing, and I truly believe what God was doing was just testing Abraham's faith. As for as human sacrifice, if Jesus wasn't sacrificed, I sure don't know what else you would call it. I'm no Bible scholar like some here, but I do think a lot of folks here tend to "overthink" things. I love what scripture say's in Proverbs, Trust God from the bottom of your heart; don’t try to figure out everything on your own. Listen for God’s voice in everything you do, everywhere you go; he’s the one who will keep you on track. Don’t assume that you know it all. Praise Jesus! _________________ Bill
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2017/7/2 11:27 | Profile |
Martyr Member
Joined: 2012/6/10 Posts: 225 United States
| Re: | | Sree, you say "No act by itself can be sin. God does not look at our action but our motives" but this is incorrect. In the levetical sacrificial system there were sacrifices to atone for unintentional sins.
I am in agreement with OP. Human sacrifice is a sin no matter how you slice it, the fact that faith was demonstrated by it does not annul that. I feel like no one is addressing that issue but is instead talking around it _________________ Tyler
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2017/7/2 16:36 | Profile |
Martyr Member
Joined: 2012/6/10 Posts: 225 United States
| Re: | | TMK, this is something that deals with who our God is. I don't think you're over thinking at all. It is a good question!! _________________ Tyler
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2017/7/2 16:40 | Profile |
docs Member
Joined: 2006/9/16 Posts: 2753
| Re: | | If human sacrifice is a sin no matter how you slice it does it hurt or change our perspective any to remember that in the prophetic utterance of Gen 3:15 that God had already decided that the bruising of the serpent's head would be accomplished through a human sacrifice? And that God Himself would provide the sacrifice (Gen 22:14)?
What was the cross? First and foremost it was a HUMAN SACRIFICE.
26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF. (Heb 9:26)
27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for his own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He OFFERED UP HIMSELF. (Heb 7:27)
13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,
24 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit OFFERED HIMSELF without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to served the living God? (Heb 9:13-14)
It may have been wrong for the nations surrounding Israel and for Israel to practice human sacrifice to appease stone and wooden gods but in God's eternal purpose a human sacrifice did and still stands at the heart of His redemptive plan. All prefigured in the command to sacrifice Isaac. So was what the nations and Israel were forbidden to do completely taboo if God undertook it in Christ? I acknowledge freely Christ being man and God yet the man Christ Jesus hung on the cross as a human sacrifice. Was God really coming out of left field and commanding Abraham to perform a totally unseemly act? God had already determine before the foundation of the world to engage in a human sacrifice to provide for mankind's redemption. If the nations and Israel were forbidden to do it did that mean God couldn't?
_________________ David Winter
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2017/7/2 17:18 | Profile |
TMK Member
Joined: 2012/2/8 Posts: 6650 NC, USA
| Re: | | Jesus gave himself up which is a subtle yet important distinction.
Yes it was Gods plan but Jesus was complicit every step of the way. _________________ Todd
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2017/7/2 19:12 | Profile |
TMK Member
Joined: 2012/2/8 Posts: 6650 NC, USA
| Re: | | Sree wrote: I think the problem with TMK's understanding is he considers this act of faith by Abraham as sin because it included a human sacrifice.
No-- I certainly don't think Abraham sinned. It SEEMS that God tempted him to sin but we know that cannot be true.
Query: did God know Abraham would not plunge the knife in? If so, was it a real test? _________________ Todd
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2017/7/2 19:15 | Profile |
Sree Member
Joined: 2011/8/20 Posts: 1953
| Re: | | Quote:
I am in agreement with OP. Human sacrifice is a sin no matter how you slice it, the fact that faith was demonstrated by it does not annul that. I feel like no one is addressing that issue but is instead talking around it
I gave a very clear explanantion why human sacrifice is not a sin in this case. It is not the act but the motive that God sees. If you call the sacrifice of Issac as sin then you should also call Jesus breaking the Sabbath also a sin. Hence he is not your perfect sacrifice! Jesus not stoning the adlulterous women is also a sin! Again when you want you are willing to twist the argument but in all other cases you want to see black and white based on commandment. It is not always black and white.
It shows me that many here live by letter instead of spirit. That is why they cannot understand how by spirit the sacrifice of Issac is not sin. But if you live by letter with an old covenant life, then you will see it as sin like how Pharisees saw everything that Jesus did as Sin. _________________ Sreeram
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2017/7/2 21:10 | Profile |
Martyr Member
Joined: 2012/6/10 Posts: 225 United States
| Re: | | Do you have kids? Slicing a 14 year olds neck open is not a sin as long as you mean Well? Now answer my question about the sacrifice for unintentional sins. If the heart was right then why were those things counted as sins needing atonement?
The Sabbath was made for man not man for Sabbath. That is different then killing another human, take your own advice and stop painting it black and white. Those are two completely different things _________________ Tyler
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2017/7/2 21:19 | Profile |
| Re: | | If the "clay" has figured out everything what the "potter" is doing, let me know.
More importantly let's try and understand John 3:16 And then let's also try and understand what it means: "by faith Abraham.."
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2017/7/3 0:57 | |
Heydave Member
Joined: 2008/4/12 Posts: 1306 Hampshire, UK
| Re: | | Todd, maybe you answered your own question when you stated the following: "Jesus gave himself up which is a subtle yet important distinction." "Yes it was Gods plan but Jesus was complicit every step of the way."
If as generally believed Issac was around 14 years old, he would also have been complicit and willing. There is no mention that Abraham forced him onto the alter, but I think he trusted his father. Therefore this is the exact typology of what God would accomplish through His son Jesus. Jesus said "Abraham saw my day and rejoiced". Was it at this point that Abraham got the revelation of what God was going to do through the sacrifice of Jesus. I believe it was. _________________ Dave
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2017/7/3 10:41 | Profile |