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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : End time teaching of Elijah in the last days

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docs
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 Re:

Staff,

If my memory serves me correctly the scenario you presented was that the two witnesses would appear and call the church to the wilderness and this church would be raptured to a place of safety during normal times in the first half of the tribulation. In my opinion the rapture and translation of the church, saints living and dead, will take place at the last trumpet (I Cor 15:52). What other view can be taken after reading this scripture? The question then is not whether the church will be raptured but when does the all important last trumpet occur? The point is that if a pre or mid trib rapture occurs heralded by a trumpet can this trumpet legitimately be designated the last trumpet if another and final trumpet is to occur at the second coming of Christ (Matt 24:31)? So if the timing of the last trumpet mentioned anywhere is at the second coming it in and of itself rules out the possibility of a pre or mid trib rapture. There can't be a last trumpet at a pre or mid trib rapture only to followed by another last trumpet at the second coming. So scripture verifies the church will be present for the duration of the age including the tribulation. John Darby was the first person in church history to propose otherwise. This timing of the last trumpet does not nullify the appearance of the two witnesses nor diminish the divinely intended role of the church during this time. Its just that all correct views must correspond with the sequence the scriptures present.

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed. ( I Cor 15:51-52)

See Matt 24:31.


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David Winter

 2017/6/24 11:07Profile
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 Re: The appearance of the two witnesses

Staff you asked if I believed they are to appear during the first or last part of the tribulation. Scripture gives a very clear and easy to understand answer. The answer being that when the two witnesses are resurrected and ascend the 6th trumpet has already sounded and the 7th trumpet (the third woe) is about to immediately sound (Rev 11:21-15). No stretch of the imaging action nor any amount of determined scripture wresting can place this time during the first peaceful normal times part of the tribulation. It's really not even hard to determine this if one just reads and remains true to the sequence scripture presents.

So it's not possible for the two witnesses to be active only during the first part of the tribulation. How can the 6th trumpet have already occurred when the witnesses are resurrected and ascend if they appear during the first half of the tribulation? It doesn't mean the two witnesses will not appear and fulfill their prophetic roles. It's just when will they appear and the scriptures leave no doubt. Meanwhile, the church is not going anywhere until the last trumpet occurs - see Matt 24:31. The scriptural scenario thus can be legitimately rendered: The church will be present until the last trumpet sounds at the second coming and two witnesses will come in the spirit and power of Elijah and will powerfully and effectually appear in the second half of the last three and a held years during which the church will be present also. The role of the church and the two witnesses will not be diminished by the divinely appointed time in which they have their activity.

30 and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matt 24:30-31). Thus shall we ever be with the Lord.


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David Winter

 2017/6/24 12:17Profile
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 Re:

Hi Docs

So You are saying that correct me if I am wrong that the Witnesses minister between the middle of the 7 years and the end of the 7 years? because the last trumpet is at the end of the seven years.
Is that a fair summary?
urs staff

 2017/6/24 17:25Profile
docs
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 Re:

That's a fair summary of the sequence scripture presents.

1) If the two witnesses are resurrected and ascend after the 6th trumpet has blown and the blowing of the 7th trumpet is immediately imminent how can this be the first half of the tribulation? Which side of the tribulation does the 6th and 7th trumpets occur in?

2) How can the church, living and dead, be translated until the last trumpet of this present age sounds at the second coming (I Cor 15:52 with I Thess 4:16-18 and Matt 24:31).

Thanks.

Thanks.


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David Winter

 2017/6/24 17:45Profile
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 Re:

Hi Docs,
Memory nearly correct,I said I thought the Church would be raptured or brought to a place of safety but if pushed would think we are raptured.
I dont know much about John Darby but and I dont know whether he was right or not but Church history is just Church history its not scripture,
.
I think ur sequence doesnt explain the following
The last woe would have to be outside of the tribulation period.
Where did the people get the resources to party at the end of the tribulation?

your qoute:
This timing of the last trumpet does not nullify the appearance of the two witnesses nor diminish the divinely intended role of the church during this time

Ok so the trumpet is the sticking point with you and I have asked some pre tribbers hopefully could give an insight to this and why it isnt a sticking point with them,

If it is a case that the Church does go the Tribulation I could handle that (i wouldnt want to go through it though) I see the time of the witnesses testimony as in peace time similar to Noah and Lot and I see the first half as peaceful.(half way through the week the peace agreement/treaty is broken)
I would still like to see your exact or as close as anyone could get timeline of the 7 years,
The witnesses have 1260 days they can only be from start to middle or middle to end,one or the other ,The 7 years can either be half peaceful and half not or 7 years of wrath.
Their is a broken peace treaty for a week thats broken half way through where does that fit in with the trumpets?

thanks for ur thoughtful replys
urs staff

 2017/6/24 17:46Profile
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 Re:

I'll get back to you before long bro. I'm sort of doing two or three things at once right now.


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David Winter

 2017/6/24 17:50Profile
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 Re:

Hi Docs
One thing that has always bothered me and I have no proof one way or the other but are the "3 1/2 days" literally monday,tuesday,wednesday and half of thursday or do the represent a longer period of time,
urs staff

 2017/6/24 17:50Profile
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 Re:

Hi Docs
No prob
Enjoy the weekend,
urs Hugh

 2017/6/24 17:51Profile
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 Re:

Hi All,
Ive been looking at this and a question has popped up that i am wondering about
What is the the "third woe" in revelation and what are its effects and upon whom?It isnt that clear too me
thanks in advance
staff

 2017/6/24 18:57Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
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 Re:

Holy mackerel.


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Todd

 2017/6/24 19:36Profile





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