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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : End time teaching of Elijah in the last days

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 Re:

Hi Martyr,
As a former Catholic I would wouldnt even consider them a Church so I cant even then call them apostate.Im not speaking out of bitterness here.The unity the Catholic Church has is not from God and it is kept together through rituals,superstition and cohersion.
God is not working backwards even John said he baptised with water and the one to come will be with Fire.
I think that the world needs another baptism of repentance,I dont think repentance every goes out of date!
The witnesses indeed come in Sackcloth which speaks to me of "repentance and mourning"
One of the groups of people hardest hit by the arrival of the two Witnesses will be the crazy end of the Pentecostal movement most of which are Pre Trib believers.
If it was down to us we probably wouldnt have an Elijah the come before Jesus as we dont really understand why he came then.
Ok the question about why the "Spirit of Elijah"is a very good question.Let me explain.
The Spirit of Elijah is in reality the Holy Spirit working in a specific way and a unique way almost.
I say Almost because Elijah,John The Baptist and one other person in history had the "Spirit of Elijah"
Who was he?
Elisha
After taking a look at the history of Elisha,I now think that the two witnesses are Elijah and Elisha not Elijah and Moses as some think or Elijah and Enoch as some also think.

Their are a few almost obscure scriptures that lead me to that conclusion ,Why does the King repeat the "Chariots and Horsemen line" when Elisha dies and the story of the "Kids shouting insults at Elisha" is best explained in the lens of a prophesy.
urs staff

 2017/6/21 16:33Profile
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 Re:

Hi Lysa,
In conclusion to this thread I'd like to point out my observsations.
Their have been objections/debate about the following:
That some people have gone into err in the past basically claiming to be Elijah
That their is too much emphasis about a man rather than Christ
The Timeline in regards to the trumpets has come up and timeline in general
Some comment was made about where it says that Elijah will come again

I answered those remarks as best as could and think except for the trumpets allayed any fears people have.

The important conclusion for me is that no one really challenged the basic teaching or Scripture attached to it.
That is that Mt Carmel is a typicological Prophesy of the Life of John the Baptist and that both Elijah and John point to the Two Witnesses in the Future; either that or their is a staggering amount of coincidence involved.(the Holy Spirit doesnt do coincidence)They may have challenged it but not scripturally.
I added and explained that the Church began with John The Baptist as proved with the last line or verse before Pentecost.This is really important to understand if you want to understand Pentecost I believe.

Again if you put Elijah,John The Baptist and The Two Witnesses in three columns and write down the similarities it cannot be coincidence.You should put Elisha in a column as well to be complete,.
I dont believe in coincidence in the bible,I think the Holy Spirit has placed every Jot and Tittle in the right place and they all count for something.
Elijah is coming again even according to "The Church Fathers" everyone admits.
What will Elijah do when he comes?Just look at what he did do in the past to find out.I think thats fair isnt it if
he is coming again in the future shouldnt I be able with the help of the Holy Spirit to study what he is going to do.
Shouldnt the Holy Spirit have the right to help me understand what the bible is saying about Elijah and the future?
Time will tell but it is important that the Church do not harden their hearts and end up working against what God is going to do because of lack of understanding.

Finally this I will say the "The Latchet of Christ's shoe Elijah,John and the Two Witnesses are not worthy to untie".These Prophets all knew that in the past and will in the future.They are their to Point to Christ,to make way for him so that our hearts will be ready not burdened with unimportant things in life but to understand and to expect that the greatest and best is about to come again soon, Jesus Christ our Lord and redeemer,
May he come soon Amen
urs staff




 2017/6/22 6:24Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
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 Re:

You brought out some good points staff and things worthy of consideration. I didn't agree with them all though but you probably didn't expect me to.

I don't think John baptizing Jesus is a type or fulfillment of Elijah pouring water on the sacrifice. Baptism was a common practice in John's day and Jesus was thus following the custom. John described Jesus as the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world so Jesus came as a Yon Kippur type of sacrifice upon which water was never poured.

Pentecost depending on there bring 12 apostles may have some bearing but I think the pouring out of the Spirit at Pentecost depended more on the fact that Jesus had then been glorified and was sitting at the right hand of the Father. Before that the Spirit had not yet been given because Jesus had not yet been glorified (John 7:39).

Saying the saints will be raptured and licked up to safety as the fire licked up the water Elijah had poured seems a bit much also. I don't see a prophetic type and fulfillment in this.

I think the timeline you basically presented still suffers because when the two witnesses are resurrected and ascend this ends the second woe leading immediately to the third woe. Its right there in black and white (Rev 11:12-15). The third woe is the 7th trumpet so there is no possible way for the two witnesses to have their ministry of 1,260 days in the first half of the tribulation. If the church were to be raptured at a pre-trib or mid-trib rapture and the scriptures plainly show that the two witnesses appear in the second half of the tribulation then the church and the two witnesses will never cross each other's path. I would look strongly again into your view that the two witnesses appear in the first half of the tribulation. As said before, if their resurrection and ascension signals the end of the second and the beginning of the third woe (the 7th trumpet) then this can't be the first half of the tribulation. The timeline the good Lord has graciously revealed to us is our friend and need not be wrestled over. If comes from His grace and Fatherly care.

I would also venture that the church cannot be raptured at the beginning or midway through the tribulation. The church is translated and glorified at the last trumpet (I Cor 25:52). A supposed pre-trib or mid-trib trumpet cannot intelligently be called the last trumpet if another final trumpet is to sound at the second coming of Christ (Matt 24:31). This Matthew 24:31 trumpet signals the gathering of saints to Christ and is the last trumpet to sound in this present age.

Thank you staff for being a digger and scratcher after the truth. I'm not near one of those who believes eschatology and its details don't matter because you know it will all pan out in the end. That is not found anywhere in the Bible. I don't think you believe that either and that's good in my opinion.I would love to sit across a table from you and we both have our Bibles open. That would be great.

Blessings from here.


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David Winter

 2017/6/22 18:09Profile
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 Re:

Hi Docs
The way I look at it is I dont think the the bible does coincidence,
For instance John didnt want to follow the custom but Jesus forced him too,saying that he was "fullfilling"something?
John was a type of Elijah and Jesus was a Type of Sacrifice and you cant join the dots........and say that pouring water over Jesus was Elijah pouring water over the Sacrifice.

The 12 being in full compliment had more than a bearing look at the scripture below without the Chapter break between 1 and 2 and see how clearly it reads.The last thing that happend before the Spirit was poured out was ?The twelve were made whole.
Also Peter said "it is necessary"
Nessacary -needed to be done, achieved, or present; essential.

Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”
So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.
When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them

On the issue of being licked up,its a small one but when u add it to all the others it paints a picture of what is going to happen.It is interesting though that the tongue is involved in both Pentecost and Mt Carmel.
One other thing is that the only person in the bible that is involved with 3 1/2 years is Elijah.(mentioned in Daniel but doesnt effect Daniel)

I think you are stuck on the Trumpets and Woe issues which is fine but if you looked at Elijah without them present in your thinking then u would see that their isnt any conincidence that Elijah follows a pattern and the pattern stays true.
One last thing on Typology at the end of 3 1/2 years in each case a miracle regarding going up and down to heaven happens...Elijah the fire fell and licked everything up to heaven,In Pentecost the Fire fell from Heaven and in the Two witnesses they rose and were raptured and went to heaven.

Their are big problems with the witnesses going up to heaven at the end of the second half of the 7 years that you have to overcome in your logic.The world like in the Noah and Lot examples is normal when the witnesses go to heaven not after going through tribulation.The world was partying and releived about something.They had presents to give to each other,it was a time of plenty.

Ok I have looked at the woes a bitt and if you could consider this problem .Look at this timeline problem.

The two witnesses are raptured(end of 7 year period)
The second woe has passed and third is on its way.
The bible says "immediately after those days the sky would be darkened" My question is when will their be time for the the third woe to happen? If their is no gap between the end of the 7 year period and the sky darkening and also wouldnt the third woe be outside of the great tribulation? if it were after the end of second 1260 days(and exact figure not a day more or less,)
Also where is their even a gap for their bodies to lie 3 1/2 days in the street if immediately the skies are darkened.

On the Noah and Lot examples if I cant use Elijah tpyology then Jesus cant use Noah and Lot examples,I'l complain when I get there!
I am not a Pan tribulationist either for the reason that our Tribulation views effect all our other views strongly.
I think that we all Pre,Mid or Post believers have to accept that that is the case and realized we are all influenced by this fact,It might help us to be more patient and understanding and that we all love the same Jesus
Thanks Docs
urs staff

 2017/6/22 20:38Profile
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 Re:

I'm not denying Elijah may come again thus fulfilling certain types. I'm just saying I don't agree with every single one you propose.

Jesus wanted John to baptize Him to "fulfill all righteousness" (Matt 3:15) and not to prove a sacrifice could still be consummed with fire even though it had water poured over it three times. Types are types for sure but it is a bit of a stretch in my opinion. Jesus was not consummed by fire and nothing says He was licked back up to heaven at His own ascension. The church is never portrayed as going to be licked up to heaven by tongues of fire.

There is nothing about the fire on Mt Carmel licking things up to heaven. It just says the fire licked up the water in the trenches.

How do the two witnesses ascend to heaven during normal times if their ascension (after vegetation struck, after seas struck, after waters struck, after heavens struck, after locusts etc.) signals the end of the second woe and the 7th trumpet (third woe) is about to sound? What half of the tribulation is this - normal peaceful times or troubled times? Its a bit baffling to me for you go see this context very clearly laid out but choose to ignore it.

I don't feel yet you have understood my point about the last trumpet and why I have emphasized it. I'm not trying to be haughty or a know it all but I'm thinking you are not used to using this very excellent chronological marker in your reasoning. The point is that the church can't go anywhere or be translated until the LAST TRUMPET occurs (I Cor 15:52). Whenever this trumpet occurs is when the dead saints will be raised and translated and receive their rewards. I see that as Matt 24:31. The timing of this trumpet in and of itself does away with any per or mid tib rapture. The graciousness of it is its simple uncomplicated clarity. The 7th trumpet of Rev 11:15 (the last trumpet of Rev) is the time when God's wrath has come and the time has come for the dead to be judged (11:18). This speaks therefore of a time of resurrection when the dead are judged and God shall reward His servants and prophets and the saints (11:18). All servants, saints and prophets and those who fear God's name will be rewarded at the time of resurrection. Pre or mid trib resurrections can be utterly ruled out by the time frame of the last trumpet. That's why I have emphasized them. The sixth trumpet has already sounded when the two witnesses are resurrected and ascend. As respectfully as I can say it, how you place this in the peaceful normal times side of the tribulation remains baffling to me.

Thank you.






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David Winter

 2017/6/22 22:48Profile
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 Re:

Hi Docs
Which ones do you agree with and which do not?
You see you have to understand how the Jews look at Prophesy rather than the western view of prophesy ;it has mulitiple fulfillments.

I cant except that these events are not one of the same Prophetically.

Elijah,12 stones,wood laid in order,A sacrifice,A wicked King Ahab,A wicked Woman Jezebel,A miraculous event;the fire falling at the end of 3 1/2 years
AND
Elijah(John) 12 stones(Revelation),A wooden Cross,A sacriice,A wicked king Herod and A wicked woman Herodias daughter,and Fire falling after 3 1/2 years

I think id better understand ur position if I knew clearly the following.... do you think The witnesses come from the start of the 7 years to the middlie or from them middle to the end?and when do you see the wrath of God poured out in the first half or the second half or the complete 7 years?

I see the first half as peaceful and the second half as "The Great Tribulation" .
urs staff

 2017/6/23 8:53Profile
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 Re:

"In this time of treading down, God has reserved to himself his faithful witnesses, who will not fail to attest the truth of his word and worship, and the excellency of his ways. Here observe,

I. The number of these witnesses: it is but a small number and yet it is sufficient.
1. It is but small. Many will own and acknowledge Christ in times of prosperity who will desert and deny him in times of persecution; one witness, when the cause is upon trial, is worth many at other times.
2. It is a sufficient number; for in the mouth of two witnesses every cause shall be established. Christ sent out his disciples two by two, to preach the gospel. Some think these two witnesses are Enoch and Elias, who are to return to the earth for a time: others, the church of the believing Jews and that of the Gentiles: it should rather seem that they are God's eminent faithful ministers, who shall not only continue to profess the Christian religion, but to preach it, in the worst of times.
II. The time of their prophesying, or bearing their testimony for Christ. A thousand two hundred and threescore days; that is (as many think), to the period of the reign of antichrist; and, if the beginning of that interval could be ascertained, this number of prophetic days, taking a day for a year, would give us a prospect when the end shall be.
III. Their habit, and posture: they prophesy in sackcloth, as those that are deeply affected with the low and distressed state of the churches and interest of Christ in the world.
IV. How they were supported and supplied during the discharge of their great and hard work: they stood before the God of the whole earth, and he gave them power to prophesy. He made them to be like Zerubbabel and Joshua, the two olive-trees and candlestick in the vision of Zechariah, ch. 4:2, etc. God gave them the oil of holy zeal, and courage, and strength, and comfort; he made them olive-trees, and their lamps of profession were kept burning by the oil of inward gracious principles, which they received from God. They had oil not only in their lamps, but in their vessels-habits of spiritual life, light, and zeal.
V. Their security and defence during the time of their prophesying: If any attempted to hurt them, fire proceeded out of their mouths, and devoured them, v. 5. Some think this alludes to Elias's calling for the fire from heaven, to consume the captains and their companies that came to seize him, 2 Ki. 1:12. God promised the prophet Jeremiah (ch. 5:14), Behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people shall be wood, and it shall devour them. By their praying and preaching, and courage in suffering, they shall gall and wound the very hearts and consciences of many of their persecutors, who shall go away self-condemned, and be even terrors to themselves; like Pashur, at the words of the prophet Jeremiah, ch. 20:4. They shall have that free access to God, and that interest in him, that, at their prayers, God will inflict plagues and judgments upon their enemies, as he did on Pharaoh, turning their rivers into blood, and restraining the dews of heaven, shutting heaven up, that no rain shall fall for many days, as he did at the prayers of Elias, 1 Ki. 17:1. God has ordained his arrows for the persecutors, and is often plaguing them while they are persecuting his people; they find it hard work to kick against the pricks.
VI. The slaying of the witnesses. To make their testimony more strong, they must seal it with their blood. Here observe,
1. The time when they should be killed: When they have finished their testimony. They are immortal, they are invulnerable, till their work be done. Some think it ought to be rendered, when they were about to finish their testimony. When they had prophesied in sackcloth the greatest part of the 1260 years, then they should feel the last effect of antichristian malice.
2. The enemy that should overcome and slay them-the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit. Antichrist, the great instrument of the devil, should make war against them, not only with the arms of subtle and sophistical learning, but chiefly with open force and violence; and God would permit his enemies to prevail against his witnesses for a time.
3. The barbarous usage of these slain witnesses; the malice of their enemies was not satiated with their blood and death, but pursued even their dead bodies.
(1.) They would not allow them a quiet grave; their bodies were cast out in the open street, the high street of Babylon, or in the high road leading to the city. This city is spiritually called Sodom for monstrous wickedness, and Egypt for idolatry and tyranny; and here Christ in his mystical body has suffered more than in any place in the world.
(2.) Their dead bodies were insulted by the inhabitants of the earth, and their death was a matter of mirth and joy to the antichristian world, v. 10. They were glad to be rid of these witnesses, who by their doctrine and example had teased, terrified, and tormented the consciences of their enemies; these spiritual weapons cut wicked men to the heart, and fill them with the greatest rage and malice against the faithful.
VII. The resurrection of these witnesses, and the consequences thereof. Observe,
1. The time of their rising again; after they had lain dead three days and a half (v. 11), a short time in comparison of that in which they had prophesied. Here may be a reference to the resurrection of Christ, who is the resurrection and the life. Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Or there may be a reference to the resurrection of Lazarus on the fourth day, when they thought it impossible. God's witnesses may be slain, but they shall rise again: not in their persons, till the general resurrection, but in their successors. God will revive his work, when it seems to be dead in the world.
2. The power by which they were raised: The spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet. God put not only life, but courage into them. God can make the dry bones to life; it is the Spirit of life from God that quickens dead souls, and shall quicken the dead bodies of his people, and his dying interest in the world.
3. The effect of their resurrection upon their enemies: Great fear fell upon them. The reviving of God's work and witnesses will strike terror into the souls of his enemies. Where there is guilt, there is fear; and a persecuting spirit, though cruel, is not a courageous, but a cowardly spirit. Herod feared John the Baptist.
VIII. The ascension of the witnesses into heaven and the consequences thereof, v. 12, 13. Observe,
1. Their ascension. By heaven we may understand either some more eminent station in the church, the kingdom of grace in this world, or a high place in the kingdom of glory above. The former seems to be the meaning: They ascended to heaven in a cloud (in a figurative, not in a literal sense) and their enemies saw them. It will be no small part of the punishment of persecutors, both in this world and at the great day, that they shall see the faithful servants of God greatly honoured and advanced. To this honour they did not attempt to ascend, till God called them, and said, Come up hither. The Lord's witnesses must wait for their advancement, both in the church and in heaven, till God calls them; they must not be weary of suffering and service, nor too hastily grasp at the reward; but stay till their Master calls them, and then they may gladly ascend to him.
2. The consequences of their ascension-a mighty shock and convulsion in the antichristian empire and the fall of a tenth part of the city. Some refer this to the beginning of the reformation from popery, when many princes and states fell off from their subjection to Rome. This great work met with great opposition; all the western world felt a great concussion, and the antichristian interest received a great blow, and lost a great deal of ground and interest,
(1.) By the sword of war, which was then drawn; and many of those who fought under the banner of antichrist were slain by it.
(2.) By the sword of the Spirit: The fear of God fell upon many. They were convinced of their errors, superstition, and idolatry; and by true repentance, and embracing the truth, they gave glory to the God of heaven. Thus, when God's work and witnesses revive, the devil's work and witnesses fall before him."

For balance, Matthew Henry's commentary on Rev 11


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Todd

 2017/6/23 8:59Profile
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 Re:

Hi Tmk,
I do remember when I felt led to study the subject that I read Matthew Henrys Commentary and I found it to be uninspiring about the end times and really just didnt bring anything to the table that I wouldnt just get straight away from reading the text,urs staff

 2017/6/23 9:55Profile
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 Re:

// I found it to be uninspiring about the end times and really just didnt bring anything to the table that I wouldnt just get straight away from reading the text,urs staff//

What text are you talking about?

ADD: the obvious problem with a highly symbolic book like REV is knowing when to take things literally. There are clues in the two witnesses account that indicate it is not literal- I referenced one in a prior post when I asked why it would be necessary to "make war" on 2 persons.


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Todd

 2017/6/23 10:40Profile
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 Re:

Thanks staff. I'm working today but I'll get back to you as soon as possible. Might be tonight or tomorrow morning.


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David Winter

 2017/6/23 11:02Profile





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