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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : End time teaching of Elijah in the last days

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staff
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 Re:

Hi Docs
Ok firstly I think that the Church will be on Earth for the First 3 1/2 years and I dont hold with a Pre Trib view on the rapture that we will be gone before the 7yrs begins.

Also we should not mix the two issues up in the sense what I see in scripture about the two witnesses everyone else does to that at least one of the witnesses has the "spirit of Elijah".
So one of the witnesses of the two (i think its both) has the Spirit and Power of Elijah whether or not what I am saying is correct or not almost all commentators agree on that including as said before by Greg the Church Fathers.
I see the witnesses coming in the first half of the tribulation because the Anti Christ is not in Control only in the second half of the 7 yrs,
urs staff

 2017/6/20 18:27Profile
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 Re:

Hi Docs
I phrased that poorly I cant even read it back myself
...

Almost all commentators agree including the Church Fathers that one of the witnesses is Elijah.
That fact is not dependant on whether I am right or wrong.
There will be a future Elijah would be agreed upon by almost all Tribulation views ie one of the witnesses.


I think they are for the Church and possibly for the Church and Israel at the same time,
urs staff

 2017/6/20 18:37Profile
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 Re:

Hi Martyr
This is something I didnt realize before this thread.

On thinking about it their is a difference between one Church like for instance The Catholic Church becoming Apostate and all Churches becoming Apostate.
In another way : because the Apostles were dead then the all Churches became Apostate which is what these groups would believe.This is incorrect view .Yes it was better when the Apostles were alive and ministring than after they died but just because they are not with us now doesnt mean all Churches are Apostate.What it does mean now is that with the lack of Apostles in the sense of the 12 Apostles means the Church is dis-unified .In practical terms if the Apostles were alive they would have a meeting if their was a theological dispute and make a decision about that dispute and all Churches would except it or if their was a problem in a Church an Apostle like Paul would write a letter or two and come on a visit and sort things out,That doesnt happen today because this type of Apostolic Ministry is not present,
urs staff
ps: A main reason for dis unity is the result of lack of Apostleship

 2017/6/20 19:03Profile
docs
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 Re:

Okay.Thank you. I'm only trying to be a Berean and search the matter through. I have no doubt they will have the spirit of Elijah and may be sent to both Israel and the church.

Yet it is the AC that makes war on them when they finish their testimony (Rev 11:7). When they are resurrected and and ascend into heaven it ends the second woe (Rev 11:14). That can't possibly be in the first half of the seven years. It they prophesy for 1,260 days and are slain at the end of the time their testimony it can't be in the first half. When they ascend the second woe is past and that is during the second half. That's all I am saying.

Thank you.


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David Winter

 2017/6/20 19:44Profile
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 Re:

Hi Docs
I did look at that woe and admit it is a problem but I havent looked deeply into the "woe" like I have the witnesses and may get an answer to that.
On the other hand if their ministry ends at the end of the 7yrs their are bigger chronological problems:
The world is in no fit state and doesnt have the resources either physically or mentally to have a party to celebrate their death ,the world is after going through the "The Great Tribulation".....
I have looked into why I think they have a party though and I think my observations are at least interesting

The witnesses which will include the Church will preach/witness that "Jesus is coming" for 1260days like Elijah should and when the witnesses are killed the world thinks and are so relieved that their is no Judgement and that Jesus didnt come for his followers that they Party hard,They will say those witnesses were just more cranks with an "End of the World" signs around their necks!
Then the rapture happens and like everyone else the witnesses rise to their feet and go!
This is where it has a parralel with Mt Carmel where everyone waited with baited breath to see who would win the contest the Prophets of Baal or Elijah,in this case it will be the false religous system that will be saying those witnesses their crazy ,why should holy people like us be Judged etc.So I am saying that the rapture is probably a competition or the result of a competition where Elijah or the Two witnesses make the heavesns open and the fire to fall and the followers of Christ to be "licked up" to "safety".
urs staff

 2017/6/20 20:29Profile
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 Re:

Yet you have said before that the church will be taken to safety during times of normalcy. If the two witnesses are killed and resurrected and ascend and this ends the second woe then this is deep into the tribulation. Very deep. Plus, the church consisting of saints living and dead can't be translated until the last trumpet (I Cor 15:52) which hasn't sounded yet. The church can't go anywhere before the last trumpet.


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David Winter

 2017/6/20 20:47Profile
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 Re:

Why is it necessary to "make war" on two individuals?


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Todd

 2017/6/20 21:18Profile
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 Re:

Staff, I agree to an extent. However the Catholic church still maintains this sense of apostolic authority (whether they are actually apostles or not is up to debate.) It seems to me this unifying structure is according to scripture, the disunity lies with protestants who are doing what is right in their own eyes and do not answer to any authority except the ones they themselves have established. In this i think the Catholic church is correct.

I do have one other question, why an emphasis on the spirit of Elijah? I certainly don't want that spirit and am glad it is done away with for we are baptized into a much greater spirit, the Spirit of Christ. This John did not have, in fact those baptised into John needed to be rebaptized into Christ. Why would God go backwards and work through an inferior spirit? The scripture says they will look on Him who they pierced and then they will see their folly.


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Tyler

 2017/6/20 21:40Profile
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 Re:

Paul speaks in chapter 14 of military trumpets and their distinct sound for different aspects of the battle to come or being fought, or the battle is over in victory and the last trump is sounded for assembly of all the troops to come to the place where they can go to their homes. This last trump of God for the rapture is for all the saints dead first and living to come together for the Commander and Chief of the soldiers of Christ to take them Home to the place Jesus Christ has prepared for them, The Fathers House in the heavenly place where we are already seated with Him in spirit now. Changed in the twinkling of and eye and knowing the distinct sound of the last Trump for this dispensation of Grace by faith unto salvation of Christ being made in us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption.

To this day the trump is used when raising the flag, when to get up, when to assemble, when to go into battle, when the victory is finished, when to rest and sleep, "Taps"

This is not the last trump of all time Paul speaks of, their will be many more, (example) when the tabernacle is rebuilt in the thousand year reign the trump will be sounded at feast of tabernacles. This is the last trump for the Body of Christ His Church, the battle won, for His Bride taken to His Fathers house for the finish of the wedding and the wedding feast to occur and the judgement seat of Christ. When we come back to this earth it will be in triumph with Christ at the head to set up His Kingdom and our thousand year reign with Him over the earth after the tribulation.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2017/6/21 2:50Profile
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 Re:

These trumpets you speak of in the millennial age are well past the time when the saints dead and living have been translated. In I Cor 15:52 Paul was speaking of the last trumpet that occurs in this present age. This trumpet sounds when Christ comes again at His second coming. This coming ends this age and is when saints living and dead are translated. The trumpets of a coming age are unrelated to the last trumpet of this age sounding at Christ's return (Matt 24:31) after the tribulation of those days (Matt 24:29). A trumpet sounding seven or three and a half years before the second coming cannot intelligently be called the last trumpet if there is still another trumpet to sound at Christ's second coming. It's profoundly easy to understand because God in His goodness and Fatherly care for His children has purposefully made it that way for us. Thanks to Him for that.


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David Winter

 2017/6/21 5:25Profile





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