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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : End time teaching of Elijah in the last days

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 Re:

Hi Docs
Thats the delemma isnt it,ur timeline is outside the 7years and mine is not peaceful as regards Gods Wrath.,
The Church going through the Trib is not a problem for me but I dont think it will be going through it but if it were its not a problem.
What im saying is that we look through a glass dimly and as I have said to Greg although God opens up scripture to us it still doesnt make everything clear.
Another scripture I cant get away from is Noah and Lot.
Jesus went out of his way to show that things were going on as normal and twice says "until the day" then all heaven broke loose.
No it doesnt change the fact of Elijah fair enough but I will now get back to study the woes etc
End times is never black n white lol
urs staff

 2017/6/25 23:54Profile
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 Re:

Lot is not really that good of a example of being taken out of the world before wrath. He was not taken out of the world but directed to other cities on the plain where there was safety.

Why do you seem to avoid putting up I Cor 15:52 and comparing it to Matt 24:31?

The third woe etc is not outside the time of the tribulation. The 7th trumpet sounds and the angel announces the time of the end has arrived. It doesn't say it has already occurred.


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David Winter

 2017/6/26 0:26Profile
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 Re:

Hi Docs

Lot was taken out though by Angels and it was safe and not under wrath.Also the city couldnt be judged until he was taken out.Similarly The World couldnt be judged until Noah was safe.

Off the top of my head wasnt the Angels bringing him out of the valley but he wanted to go to one of the cities himself.

Im not avoiding 1 Cor 15:52 as I said the trumpets are well argued by both sides and one says one thing and another says another.
Also I could say what about the timeline ,How is the third woe outside the 7 years?I know you dont have answer yet.
You havent aroused by interest on the Trumpets but the woes I find interesting!lol
urs staff

 2017/6/26 10:46Profile
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 Re:

The third woe signals the time of the end has come so it can't be outside of the seven years. And Christ hasn't come yet. When He comes it will be accompanied by the LAST TRUMPET recorded in this present age.

Do you believe tribulation believers (Rev 7:14) will be part of the church?


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David Winter

 2017/6/26 11:42Profile
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 Re:

Hi Docs
But how can it be inside the seven years if the two witnesses are witnessing from 1260 day to 2520 days?plus at least 3 1/2 days and the woe happens after that.
I think they are not part of the Church as the Church has left or taken .These people I think are result of the preaching of the Church and the viewing of the rapture,
urs staff

 2017/6/26 15:22Profile
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 Re:

If this church is to be gone what in your opinion will signal its translation and glorification?


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David Winter

 2017/6/26 16:37Profile
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 Re:

We have probably about run our course on this staff. When my computer is back up maybe we can email a bit if you like.

Its worth remembering that if the witness appear in the first half that is 1,260 days that they will prophesy plus three and a half days then that equals 1,260 days plus three and a half more. So your scenario has been wrong from the beginning also. And if the second woe and the 6th trumpet have already occurred when the witnesses are resurrected then it's impossible for them to have appeared in the first peaceful half.

It's a LARGE error in my opinion to divide the spiritual sons of Abraham and say those saved before a rapture are part of the church and those saved and washed in the blood of the Lamb (Rev 7:14) after a supposed rapture are not. Like I have said, the pre-trib view itself has become married because of what it incorrectly proclaims but also because of the accompanying beliefs that have grown up around it and accompany it. You said you don't know much about John Darby but you ought yo find out on my opinion. No church theologian, scholar, teacher or common saint in church history proclaimed what he was the first ever to advocate beginning in the 1830s. And Jacob Prasch doesn't teach pre-tribe or the division of the spiritual sons of Abraham who have embraced the Messiah through faith. By maintaining this division the very nature and make up of the body of Christ is called into being.

I understand now you are pre-trib and dispensational believing in two different peoples of God, one before a supposed rapture and another completely different people after a rapture even though both are saved by faith. John Darby opened a Pandora's box of error proposing these things. If he was reintroducing long lost truth I would hate to see things if he had been out to introduce error! But error he surely introduced. It helps also explain your reluctance to consider the timing of the last trumpet as being a vital key to when the church will be translated. The timing of this all important trumpet stands in the way of Darby's theories which you adhere to while Jacob Prasch does not.

Thank you for your conversation though and when my PC is back up maybe we can continue.

Blessings.



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David Winter

 2017/6/27 9:14Profile
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 Re:

There is undeniable proof that the ‘rapture’ in Matthew 24:29-31 is also the 6th Seal, in Revelation 6:12, because the signs perfectly match and the multitude is in heaven in Rev 7. The rapture is ‘pre-tribulation’ because Seals 1-5 are in the past; http://daniel11truth.com/the-seals-explain-pre-tribulation-rapture.htm, so there’s nothing left in Revelation that needs to happen before the rapture. The rapture, in Matthew 24:29-31, must happen right after the abomination (v. 15) because the two groups of ‘elect’, namely the Jews going through part of the tribulation and the Christians being gathered to heaven, must match the same two groups in Revelation 7. God’s wrath (tribulation) starts in Revelation 8. (There’s a simple but comprehensive explanation of ‘pre-tribulation’ here: “Proof of Rapture.”) After the Rapture (tribulation) The first 42 months (1260 days) of tribulation will include the Trumpet plagues (Rev 8-11), the two witnesses prophesying in Jerusalem (Rev 11), and the rise of the antichrist (Rev 13) in the Middle East. During that period, the antichrist will lead a huge army to defeat their opponents in the South, as noted in Daniel 11:40-43. Near the end of that time, the antichrist will also invade Israel, killing the two witnesses, who will lay in the street for 3.5 days, then arise and ascend to heaven, marking the end of the Seven Trumpets. Before the Bowl plagues start, the false prophet will enter the scene and perform many miracles (Rev 13), which will fool everyone (2 Thess 2: 9-12) into receiving the ‘mark of the beast’, except of course the 144,000 elect (Matt 24:24). At the 1335-day mark (Dan. 12:12), the 144,000 will be martyred (Rev 14) for not receiving the ‘mark of the beast’. Note: Those 144,000 Jews are the same ones who become priests during the 1000-years (Rev 20:4-6). In other words, contrary to popular belief, there’s no evidence of any gentile getting a 2nd chance because why would a gentile who missed the rapture become a priest? Just saying. After the martyrdom, the Bowl plagues will start (Rev 16), which will be far worse than the Trumpets, and they will last about 3-years, which will complete the 2300-days. The 7th Bowl is Armageddon, when Jesus will return to earth, along with the raptured Christians, all riding on white horses. (Rev 19) Jesus will defeat the army of the beast, led by the antichrist and false prophet, and establish His rule on earth for 1000-years.

From: http://daniel11truth.com/ I have been studding this site since 2014 and with the scriptures in Matt, Revelations, Daniel 11, 1 Thess and other scriptures, have come to the conclusion by slowly getting the scriptures to come together without any manipulation as to the timeline to end times truth, that the above is the closest I can get for now to make sense of all pros and cons and many areas of end time conclusions which do what God says in Rev 22 not to do. "Don't add to or take away from the writings in this book".

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2017/7/1 16:20Profile
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 Re:

Hi Docs,
Hi Docs Ive been unavailable for the last few days so sorry for not replying.
Thanks for the cordial and interesting discussion.
I just believe that whoever enters heaven are spirit filled,Jew,Gentile or before or after Rapture.I do believe that any Jews that are Spirit filled will be raptured or taken to safety ,whatever with the everybody else.
I dont know anything much about Darby to be honest.
I asked Greg earlier about fresh inspiration once its in line with the word.I believe you can and I strongly believe the end times Christians will know more about the end than the Christian at the beginning. Although I cant reconcile fully the Elijahs coming in the first half and you cant reconcile the third woe being outside the 7 years it doesnt mean either are wrong .
Thanks staff

 2017/7/1 17:18Profile
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 Re:

I still don't think you have gotten my point yet. If a Spirit filled Jew or Gentile is raptured to heaven this is when they are translated and glorified. I've asked again and again to no avail when Paul said this would happen (I Cor 15:52). Thanks for the conversation though.


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David Winter

 2017/7/1 19:36Profile





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