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 Penal substitution disputed by many

I'm taking a look at theories and views of the atonement and find it interesting. In a very brief thumbnail sketch, the seven major theories of the atonement are as follows

Atonement Theories:

1) Satisfaction theory - God's was offended by sin and His honor needed to be restored, thus Calvary.

2) Ransom theory - Satan had a legitimate claim to the souls of men and the earth because of sin and Jesus offered Himself as a ransom to ransom men and the earth back to God.

3) Governmental theory - God had to punish sin to show that His ruole and government were not to be disturbed.

4) Penal substitution - every breach of the law had to be punished and the necessary sacrifice to heal the breach had to be perfect. The shedding of blood was required.

5) Moral influence theory - God loved us so much He couldn't just let us go and Calvary was God's way of morally influencing us to return to Him.

6) Recapitulation - Christus Victor - God designed all with a established order and sin disrupted this order. Chrsit was the supreme victor over the sin that caused theinterrupted order and died to re-establish this order to the glory of God.

7) Healing model - God was interested in more than just the salvation of souls. He was interested in the entire cosmos and at Calvary mankind and the entire created order were given the means to be eventually set free to be brought back to God.

Meanwhile, it's a sure fact that a large portion of the church over the cenuries adopted the PENAL SUBSTITUTION theory which truth be told is not a theory but a fact. But my,in my study I now know many reject pernal substitution for the other models and views. They say penal substitution speaks of a nagry, wrathful and bloodthirsty God out for revenge which is a distortion of God's character which is love with a willingness to forgive. I wasn't really aware of the depth of the controversy.

5 But He was pierced through forour transgression, He was crushed for our iniquities, the chastening for our well being fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.

6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; But he Lord caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him.

- PIERCED THROUGH for our transgressions
- CRUSHED for our iniquities
- CHASTENING for our well being
- by HIS SCOURGING we are healed
- the iniquity of us all FELL ON HIM

How is that not penal substitution? What do you think?

Through this penal substutution, I also think that the entire created order, the entire cosmos, will eventually be affected unto complete restoration and renewal. Bu yet, if the ATONEMENT has other benefits besides the salvation of our souls, it still does not seem to do away with the foundational penal substitution aspect of the event at Calvary. What do you think?





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David Winter

 2017/4/1 11:42Profile
Martyr
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Joined: 2012/6/10
Posts: 225
United States

 Re: Penal substitution disputed by many

I personally haven't seen any of these words, including penal substitution, in the bible. Man has the need to put things in a nice convenient package that can be easily quoted, easily understood and that serve as a definitive "definition." By doing so they rob Christ of His power. Seek not the doctrines of men but the power of God and refrain from putting God in a box.


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Tyler

 2017/4/1 13:17Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2190


 Re: Can't agree

/I personally haven't seen any of these words, including penal substitution, in the bible. Man has the need to put things in a nice convenient package that can be easily quoted, easily understood and that serve as a definitive "definition."/

So what's wrong with studying the things of the word so as to understand them in a better and more definitive way and come up with workable terms?

You may not see the words penal substitution in the Bible but we see,

- PIERCED THROUGH for our transgressions
- CRUSHED for our iniquities
- CHASTENING for our well being
- by HIS SCOURGING we are healed
- the iniquity of us all FELL ON HIM
(Isaiah 53:5-6)

What's not penal substitution about that? The phrase does no violence or harm to the actual text. He bore the "penalty" I deserved by becoming a "substitute" in my place.

/By doing so they rob Christ of His power. Seek not the doctrines of men but the power of God and refrain from putting God in a box./

I didn't know Christ could be robbed of His power.

These "doctrines of men" like penal substitution are taken from the word itself such as Isaiah 53:5-6. Hardly an attempt to put God in a box.

/Seek not the doctrines of men but the power of God and refrain from putting God in a box./

"For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the POWER OF GOD." ( I Cor 1:18)








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David Winter

 2017/4/1 14:11Profile









 Re:

HI David,

I think what Martyr is getting at, and I have sympathies with his position, is that men have a desperate need to systematize theology. Another favorite word of the scholars and academics is hermeneutics. The art and the science of studying the Bible. I am just not sure it is either an art or a science. I am not against art or science, but the instrument to truly understand the Word is not the head, its the heart. If I believe in my heart and confess with my mouth then I am saved. No matter how low my IQ is, if I believe in my heart and confess with my mouth then I am saved if it is genuine.

If I want to see a beautiful sunset I use my eyes. If I want to hear a wonderful hymn I use my ears, to smell a rose I use my nose. If I want to understand God and His Word it must be first filtered through my heart. He has to speak to me through His still small voice and His Word and even when I read the Bible it is the Holy Spirit that teaches me. Men can be useful, and I am not against professors and academics, but the great truth of the Word are revealed to us by the Spirit. The Word of God is Inspiration, the understanding of Gods word is revelation.............bro Frank

 2017/4/1 15:27
TrueWitness
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Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 533


 Re: Christ kept the law to procure our righteousness disputed

Penal substitution is plainly evident in scripture. I would be surprised if anyone disputed the idea of it. They may call it something else, but it is surely there. I am told that Charles Finney did reject the idea of the substitutionary death of Christ being the payment for our sins. Finney had the worst soteriology of any theologian I know of.

Another "doctrine" which I had heard for years and accepted without much thinking is the idea that Christ kept the Old Testament Law and when he died, that earthly obedience was credited to us as our righteousness when we believed and were saved. I now think this doctrine is misguided. It sounds lovely and all, but I don't think it's true. I will say that if Jesus had not perfectly kept the Law, he would not have been in a position to save us. But I do not believe that the earthly obedience he performed while in the flesh on Earth is the righteousness we gain at salvation.

If you are interested in reading a fairly long essay on the subject by William Kelly, you can read it here:

http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/kelly/7subjcts/righteou.html

-Daniel

 2017/4/1 15:53Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: Penal substitution disputed by many

When God created Adam and Eve, they were in right relationship with Him and all things were good. Through their sin they became estranged, alienated, from the life that was in God. But from before the foundation of the world God knew that His creation would sin, and He provided an atoning sacrifice and a covenant by which man could once again be restored to sonship, bear the image of God, and partake of His divine nature. This reconciliation came through the incarnation and sacrifice of Christ. God loved us that much! God loved ME that much! He desired right relationship with us. He desired for us to be empowered by His very spirit. He desired intimacy with us.

I personally think that forgiveness of sins is only the doorway, the entrance if you will, into all that God desires for us. Why stand and examine the construction of the door, the style of hinges, the placement of the knob, when the point is to walk through the door and experience that for which the door was created. I have peace with God through Christ. The enmity is gone. I now have access to the life of God, the mysteries of God, and the mind of Christ (1 Cor. 2) through the power of the Holy Spirit. His LIFE lies behind that door. His SPIRIT lies behind that door. I am stepping through that door and never looking back. Hallelujah I am forgiven, but if that is all there is to it, I am missing God's entire plan. Christ in me, the hope of Glory. Greater things shall we do through His Holy Spirit. Being made partakers of the divine nature.


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Travis

 2017/4/1 19:57Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

English Standard Version
And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,


Christ being our righteousness, is only possible if Christ was perfectly sinless , this was only posable if he kept the law and was perfectly righteous, so when we believed god the righteousness that is in Christ , is imputed to us ,and we are declared righteous,in him , as Christ bore our sins , so also he bares our righteousness, in the same what he became the spotless lamb of god , the perfect sacrifice, on our behalf , not blemished in any way , but was wholly acceptable to the father , in both ways , as a propitiation, an appeasement towards gods perfect justice and wrath , and as a perfect righteousness that is accounted to us , that was required by gods perfect requirements....

Christ fulfilled all things according to the law .....

 2017/4/1 20:43Profile
JFW
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Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1436
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: Penal substitution disputed by many

Brother David,

Thanks for this thoughtful question and study, Lord willing it will prove profitable for (hyper)the cause of Christ in building up His body:)

Personally I do not subscribe to penal substitution, tho initially it made sense upon a cursory reading of scripture.
The reason my position changed was after discovering that there are more than one word translated as "for" and as you might suspect, they have different meanings.
The one in question is "hyper" which more often than not, I've found it to mean "for the benefit of" and not "instead of" tho further study revealed that some do include "instead" as a viable definition- (possibly to accommodate a penal substitute position?) but in reading the text and inserting either "instead of vs for the benefit of" the latter makes much more sense to me and makes for an overall consistent use of the word.

An easy example would be Romans 5:6 which is a relevant text-
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Now the first "for" is not the same root/Greek word as the second and it is the second "for" that we are concerned with as it's pivotal to our understanding of Christs sacrifice.
I understand that one could (and some do) read this and interpret it as "instead of" tho when the same word appears a little later it would be a misuse of that definition as it would distort the text and render it senseless-
For example in Romans 14:15
But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

One can simply insert "instead of" when they read "for" (hyper) and see that wouldn't work nearly as well as "for the benefit of" does (at least to my me).

The "Hyper" term appears 170 times and there are other far better examples as well as alternative definitions such as "above, of," etc....

In any case I hope this helps you dear brother in being a berean:)


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Fletcher

 2017/4/1 20:51Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2190


 Re: appolus

I'm not trying to be contrary here bro but I can't go along totally with the views you have expressed.

/I think what Martyr is getting at, and I have sympathies with his position, is that men have a desperate need to systematize theology./

Maybe it's not so much a desperate need to systematize theology as a keen desire to understand the word of God and put its many symmetrical parts together in a logical, coherent and understandable way. The book of Romans for example is a masterpiece of logic and coherence written by Paul in a very systematic way.

/Another favorite word of the scholars and academics is hermeneutics. The art and the science of studying the Bible. I am just not sure it is either an art or a science./

How can a scholar dedicated to studying the Bible be a bad thing? Biblical hertmeneutics is associated with biblical studies. Biblical scholars trained in exegesisi and hermeneutics have produced many masterful and insightful works and writings on biblical subjects.

/I am not against art or science, but the instrument to truly understand the Word is not the head, its the heart./

That goes without saying and is not even a subject for debate. Nothing even needs to be said. You somehow seem to be saying that biblical scholoars and academics never reach the point of being touched in their heart by their studies. I don't believe this is so.

/If I want to understand God and His Word it must be first filtered through my heart./

Again, that goes without saying. Why wouldn't a truly saved biblical scholar not be aware of this?

/Men can be useful, and I am not against professors and academics, but the great truth of the Word are revealed to us by the Spirit. The Word of God is Inspiration, the understanding of Gods word is revelation./

Can a biblical professor minister and teach you something out of his heart that will touch your heart since the word of God is what he is teaching? In my time when I was taught by biblical professors and teachers I left many classes greatly edified because of the subject matter just taught. Many biblical scholars have written very good things because their hearts have been touched by their systematic studies. When our hearts are touched by the word of God most of the time affects our mind also. Like I said, I'm not trying to be contrary but there's no need to stack the deck against someone doing a systematic study of a biblical subject. How can revelation to the heart not follow if they are studing the word of the Lord?


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David Winter

 2017/4/2 8:40Profile









 Re:

Hi bro David,

I did not stack the deck I made a comment. We may disagree but what is that in the big scheme of things, we both know Jesus. Let each man be fully persuaded in what he believes, that is good enough for me......bro Frank

 2017/4/2 12:15





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