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Discussion Forum : Miracles that follow the plow : International Prayer Call For Israel

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 Re: Todd

//Yes bear but in that Luke passage per the direct context he was talking about 70 AD. "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies..."//

Not so bro. Luke 21 along with the parallel passages of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 clearly point to a future coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is what Chriat and His apoatles taught. From my limuted understanding this is found in the writings of the early church fathers. This is the position of this forum as I understand Greg's position.

2 Timothy 3:16 says,

All scripture IS INSPIRED by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Thus there's an ongoing present inspiration of the word of God that brings relevance of scripture into one's life today. The Holy Spirit breathes His word into the soul of the believer today.

The praeterist would translate 2nd Timothy 3:16 as,

All scripture WAS INSPURED by God...

Praeterist would see scripture as nothing more than a glorified inspired history book relegating everything to 70 AD with no application to the believer today. I would even go as far as to say that many praetwrist would reject the notion of the baptism of the Holy Spirit and hold to a cessationist view. Thus they would not see that scripture would be speaking into the heart of the believer today.

Those who have been baptized in the Holy Spirit see that God is continually breathing his word into the believer today. Thus they would see the passages in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 as definitely pointing to a future return of Jesus Christ in which He will come and take His bride home.

This has been the historic position of the evangelical church. The believers in Jesus will soon see the return of their Bridegroom. This is the hope of the persecuted church. And this will be the hope of believers worldwide. That Jesus is soon coming.

Praeterism offers no such hope.

My thoughts bro.

Bro Blaine

---CAPS FOR EMPHASIS ONLY---

 2017/1/16 6:37
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6232
NC, USA

 Re:

Luke 21:20-28 is one complete thought. He is clearly predicting the destruction of the temple and therefore the end of the Jewish system.

And you can't explain away vs 32: "Assuredly, I say to you, THIS GENERATION will by no means pass away till ALL things take place." (My emphasis)

Jesus's words, not mine.

And I will repeat for probably the 500th time that I certainly believe in a literal future 2nd coming. It's just that Luke 21 and it's parallel passages are describing something else.


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Todd

 2017/1/16 10:21Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2531


 Re: Which generation shall not pass away?

A question and answer between two believers discussing "which generation shall not pass away?"

WHICH GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS AWAY UNTIL ALL BE FULFILLED?

Question:
I have a question that I think goes along with this discussion. I have had the opportunity to talk back and forth with a leader in Preterism, as much to learn about as anything. A lot of the debate over the future of the events verses them being past relates to the passage that makes reference to “this generation.” I asked how can it be past considering the state of Israel as a nation continuing in unbelief. To which he admits difficulty and has to spiritualize a lot of things but clings to how can it not be past? Jesus and the Apostles would be wrong and liars bc it must be, they must be the “this generation.” My question is, from my understanding of Acts 1:6-8 that the Apostles related the return of Christ and the restoration of the physical Kingdom to the Jews as happening at the same event. Jesus never reproves them, and they have been talking for 40 days about the Kingdom so I perceive they have some knowledge of it before they ask. Now, to me how can one claim that these events are past? The amount of things that have to be spiritualized as being something found in the Church seem far too great?

Answer:
I’ve written something on this already. I probably should write much more on it and hope to soon, but I will send that earlier email on this topic, and it can at least serve as a start (see below). We’ll talk about this when you’re here, but you’ve tapped into one of the thorniest problems in all the study of prophecy. And while I believe your friend has made the mistake of supposing that the alternatives that he’s so far considered are the only ones that exist, I can also sympathize and appreciate why he feels he has to interpret the tribulation as past, lest Jesus be represented as mistaken or in error, which would be disastrous, of course. This problem has been greatly exploited by atheists and liberal theologians to argue that Jesus, in His ‘humanity’, expected to return soon in connection with Jerusalem’s imminent destruction, but the “passing away” of that generation proved Him wrong in His expectation. On the part of those that have a semblance of evangelical reverence for the Lord’s authority as a prophet, and for the authority of scripture, solutions have been proposed in at least four directions, and I’ll try to cover those alternative views during your visit.

WHERE DOES SUCH A PROCESS OF SPIRITUALIZATION STOP?

Here’s a copy of that earlier email where part of your question is partly covered:

Hi,

Yes, I did not go into the ‘generation’ question in my article. I guess you could say, that from their perspective, that’s ‘our’ Achilles’ heel. Still, my thesis stands; if one is willing to spiritualize the post-tribulational coming of Jesus in the Olivet prophecy, then to be consistent, the resurrection in Daniel 12:1-2 must be spiritualized by the same rule, because both events follow the unequaled tribulation. But then where does such a process of spiritualization stop?

In my “Achilles heel’ article I tried to show that when you put the tribulation in the past so that “all these things” can be fulfilled within the lifetime of the disciples (‘this generation’), the preterist is forced to posit a mystical return of Christ. This alleged coming is understood in terms of an invisible return in judgment via the Roman siege of Jerusalem. But I pointed out that if the tribulation is interpreted as past, then one is forced to subject the resurrection of Dan 12:2 to the same spiritualization, since it, no less than the coming of Mt 24:29-31, comes after the tribulation (compare Dan 12:1-2 with Mt 24:21, 29). Not only this, but a host of OT passages show that the time of unequaled distress concludes with nothing less than the ‘day of the Lord’, which is the transition point that realizes all the goals of the covenants of promise. All of this is dissolved if the tribulation is past, so it is no wonder that a vast volume of prophetic material must be sweepingly re-interpreted and spiritualized on such an assumption.

Such a process has no clear stopping point, as it requires not only the spiritualization, but the separation and re-allocation of many associated events, as for example the resurrection, the second coming, the day of the Lord, and the “end”. I think the only reason that Sproul embraced preterism is because it seemed to him the only alternative to making Christ a false prophet. He said as much in the intro to his book on Christ’s return. He believes that Christ’s statement that “this generation shall not pass away till all these things are fulfilled” is incapable of being understood in any other way than the lifetime of the Lord’s contemporaries. This is the power of preterism among many otherwise orthodox evangelicals. The choice between past fulfillment or failed prediction has been a powerful inducement for many to turn to preterism. No neo-orthodox theologian would be guilty of such strained spiritualizing, but then liberal scholars have no trouble concluding that Jesus simply erred in His expectation that He would return within the lifetime of His disciples.

Here’s what happens: A conservative evangelical believer such as Sproul becomes aware of the use that liberal and neo-orthodox critics have made of this passage and other seemingly related passages (such as “some standing here shall not taste death” etc.) in the synoptic gospels. They see the use to which these passages have been put by atheists to argue for the failure of prophecy. They see also what they regard as inadequate attempts at explanation by futurists such as Hal Lindsey, Walvoord etc. This makes them prime candidates for the appeal of preterism, which provides for a tribulation that is past by understanding Christ’s post-tribulational coming as a mystical return in the form of an age ending judgment on Jerusalem, described poetically in the same kind of ‘apocalyptic imagery’ that the OT uses to describe other historical judgments on nations, or so it is argued. They then turn to Josephus as a first century historian recording many of the general phenomena (wars, earthquakes etc.) associated with the ‘end’ as described in the Olivet prophecy, and understood as the ‘end’ of Jersualem and the ‘Jewish age’. This is how they build their case, but their motive can be noble. They are apologists for the faith, and do not want to concede any ground to unbelief. Therefore, they are naturally attracted to preterism. They fall prey to what some have called “the black and white fallacy,” which assumes that the alternatives so far considered are the only ones that exist. This creates the danger of a false choice.

There may also be motives that are not so noble, as in the case of those that resent God’s royal prerogative to elect unconditionally, and this can take its toll on the attitude of some towards Israel in particular, making it all too convenient to conceive of a conclusion to the age that omits any special purpose of God towards Israel as a nation of destiny. Unless his position has changed, Sproul does look for the re-engraftment of a great number of natural Israel at the end of the age, disclaiming knowledge of the particulars of how or when (I wish I had his ear).

So in coming to the passage that says “Truly I say to you, this generation shall not pass away till ‘all these things’ shall be fulfilled,” I must preface what I think to be at work here by reminding us of the New Testament concept of God’s use of mystery as a two edged sword affecting both salvation and judgment. If we trace not only the word ‘mystery’ but the related terms and concepts throughout the NT, it will appear that God’s secrets are reserved to His sovereign initiative, and are divinely calculated to stumble pride and also to wage a war of strategy against the principalities and powers. He is a God that hides Himself (Isa 45:15). God’s mystery is shut up among His own (Isa 8:14-17), but to those without, it is hidden for the purpose of judgment (Mk 4:11-12).

Can we conceive that God would use deliberate measures to protect His secret from pride? Where this characteristic of God’s use of mystery is unacknowledged, the solution that I will propose will seem as foul play. But I believe that God fully designs to speak and act in ways that are sure to confound the pride of carnal confidence. I see this as characterizing the whole ministry of Christ, particularly His puzzling commands to silence. There could have been no mystery at all if the divine intention had been so unmistakeably spelled out in prophecy as some suggest; but it wasn’t (1Pet 1:11), not because God was unable to reveal everything in advance, but because it was not His intention to reveal ‘the mystery of His will’ before the time. In the same way, it was not His intention that Christ simply explain the mystery contained in the prophetic writings concerning His two advents. He knew the secret, but was not at liberty to reveal it before the time (“tell no man till …”). Why? One reason was for the sake of judgement on the wisdom of this age (see 1Cor 1:21 with 2:8).

So God is out to stumble pride as its own self-inflicted judgment. The means and measures by which this is accomplished is another conversation, but one thing is clear, God’s selective mode of revelation will always raise problems for natural reason that will defy solution by mere brain power regardless of exegetical skills. It is the humility of repentance that clears the way for the entrance of light (but then again repentance is also the result of revelation as seen in the case of Paul and the future remnant of Israel; Zech 12:10). I make this point because it explains what I think underlies the larger purpose of the Father in Jesus’ use of the term “generation”. I am suggesting that Jesus well knew the versatility of the language and that it would be a potential source of perplexity.

Jesus well knew the versatility of this term, as evident from his unique and profound use of it in His rebuke of the Pharisees in the preceding chapter. The confrontation with the Pharisees in chapt 23 sets the stage and context for what follows on the same day in the Olivet prophecy. In Mt 23:29-36 Jesus describes a phenomenon that is far too little considered in biblical theology. It is what some have called ‘corporate solidarity.’ Jesus cites the self-assured boast of the Pharisees, “If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets,” as proof that His contemporaries are in the same generational line of those that slew the prophets. It is THIS GENERATION that remains in an unbroken continuum “until YOU shall say blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord'” (Mt 23:39). The day of national repentance ends the age enduring opposition of ‘this generation’.

More than an issue of mere bloodline, the concept of generation represents a particular spiritual disposition or nature. So long as this perversity of spirit and God rejection persists in the Jewish nation, so does the exile continue, and so does “this generation” remain; it only ends when ‘all these things’ shall be fulfilled. This is consistent with the use of the term in Moses and the prophets (Deut 32:5, 20 et al), in John Baptist, and it was Stephen’s use of the same essential indictment, if not the precise term, that cost him his life (Acts 7:51-52; cf. also 1Thes 2:16).

Notice the Lord’s unique use of ‘you’ in His indictment. It is the same in Stephen’s apologetic. It is the generic ‘you’ of corporate solidarity, hence an abiding generation. It is a generation that does not escape judgment, regardless of its particular location in chronological time, ‘UNTIL’ …. This is why Jesus could speak of a future day of public acknowledgment of His messianic dignity, and describes it in terms of the generational ‘until YOU will say.’ It is why He could indict His own contemporaries as present in the killing of the prophets in the very persons of their fathers (“whom you slew”). And it is why Zechariah can speak particularly of the last generation of Jewish survivors of the last tribulation as ‘looking on Him whom THEY have pierced,’ as though they were the actual historical murderers of the Messiah. And they were; because they performed it in the persons of their Jewish forebears. Thus, the surviving remnant of Jacob’s trouble will see themselves as part of an ongoing generation, the generation that has always resisted the Spirit and slain the prophets. This, of course, assumes a powerful revelation, but we believe that such revelation will be amply communicated through the witness of the tribulation church. This witness, though very powerful, will not at first prevail to turn the larger part of the remnant to faith, but it will be the effectual seed that the Lord will quicken at the moment of His appearing, “when the Deliverer comes out of Zion to turn ungodliness from Jacob.” Only then will they ‘look on Me whom they pierced.

Finally, and here I go back to the amazing way that God hides His mysteries. It has always been striking to me that immediately after Jesus says “this generation shall not PASS AWAY till all these things be fulfilled,” He then most significantly adds: “Heaven and earth shall PASS AWAY, but My Word shall never PASS AWAY.” I believe that Jesus well knew and even anticipated how that ‘that’ generation would appear to pass without the fulfillment of “all these things.” I believe it is precisely because He knew that His words would be pointed to by the gainsayer as evidence of the failure of prophecy that He adds the revelatory caveat that sooner would heaven and earth PASS AWAY than one jot or tittle of His word to fail or fall to the ground. Impossible! So by divine design, we are left with a choice of faith, but this need not require a choice between the false alternatives of a spiritualizing preterism or unbelief concerning the Lord’s prophetic accuracy.

Yours in the Beloved.


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David Winter

 2017/1/16 10:57Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6232
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 Re:

Whoa- that was a lot to read.

The "problem" disappears if one loses their insistence that the Olivet Discourse references some future (to us) great tribulation. If that is not insisted upon, the "generation " problem disappears because the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad was within that generation.

I am willing to concede that there may be a future tribulation but nothing in the Olivet Discourse **requires** that it must be talking about something that did not happen in 70 ad.

And no, I do not believe the 2nd coming occurred in 70ad. Jesus coming in the clouds in judgment is simply apocalyptic imagery.


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Todd

 2017/1/16 14:52Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
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 Re:

Yes, it is a lot to read. I hadn't read it in a while and just happened to think of it this morning so I thought I would offer it.

One question, if Jesus coming in the clouds of judgment was apocalyptic imagery in 70 AD, will it be nothing but apocalyptic imagery when He comes at His literal second coming? If 70 AD is imagery why is the second coming to be literal? A non-Preterist would say that Matt 24:30 always has and always will be a description of His literal second coming. Personally, I don't think it will be about apocalyptic imagery on the day of His coming.

Also, there is the near/far fulfillment pattern of Bible prophecy. The Bible is full of examples that a prophecy can have a immediate and limited fulfillment in the near future when it is first given only to have a complete and exhaustive fulfillment in the far eschatological future. Jerusalem could have been surrounded by armies in 70 AD as a partial fulfillment of the Olivet prophecies and Luke 21:23-24 but it didn't end in the coming of the son of Man which is how Jesus' discourse ends. It can therefore once again be surrounded by armies in the future when the real literal second coming of the son of man is to be accomplished. The Olivet Discourse very well requires a future tribulation because immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS (Matt 24:29) they will see the sign of the son of Man appear in the clouds as He comes with power and great glory. The son of man hasn't returned yet so of logical necessity and exegesis the greatest and most intense tribulation preceding this return has to still be future. (See Daniel 12:1)

Meanwhile, we need to continue to pray for Israel on our end. The nations are going to gang them in a final sinful act of opposition to the everlasting covenant and the place Israel plays within this covenant. The LAND controversy in Palestine is here to stay until all these things be accomplished. The generation of Christ's day (near) saw a partial fulfillment of these things and the generation that sees these things at the end of the age (far) will not pass until all things be fulfilled. I propose if the church overcomes its prophetic deficit of understanding and comes into a reasonable and workable amount of prophetic literacy that these things will not take it by suprise or come upon them unawares. We will understand what is taking place.

Thank you.


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David Winter

 2017/1/16 15:19Profile
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 Re:

The future 2nd coming is literal I believe because that is when, in my view, the rapture occurs and the new heavens and earth are created (while we are raptured) after which we will return to the recreated earth to reign with Him forever.

But apart from all that I agree with you that we need to be standing firm with Israel.


_________________
Todd

 2017/1/16 16:30Profile
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 70 Nations Paris Peace Conference Total Dud, Anti Israel Gathering Defeated



In what should have been an all-out Israel hate-fest with possibly disastrous consequences for the Jewish state, 70 nations gathered in Paris for a “peace” conference on Sunday – but at the end of the day, the results were lackluster and failed to accomplish anything significant against Israel.

The conference in Paris, set forward one year ago by former French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius, was expected to have dire repercussions for Israel. Fabius envisioned it as a way of forcing Israel to accept the two-state solution. His original proposal called for France and the other nations at the conference to recognize a Palestinian state inside Israel’s borders if an agreement was not signed between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

The present incarnation of the conference was markedly toned down by the French Foreign Minister, Jean-Marc Ayrault. At a conference in Paris last June setting the parameters for Sunday’s conference, the threat of recognizing a Palestinian state was removed.

Many feared Sunday’s conference would be an echo of the UN Security Council Resolution 2334, passed three weeks ago, declaring Jewish presence in Judea, Samaria, and the Temple Mount to be illegal. But the conference in Paris stopped short of placing the blame entirely on Israel, concluding instead with a plea for direct negotiations. Though the final declaration made reference to the UN resolution 2334, it amended the language of the resolution which declared Israeli settlements to be “illegal”. The Paris conference merely referred to the UN resolution “which clearly condemned settlement activity”. No mention was made of their legal status.

Yuval Rotem, Director General of Israel’s Foreign Ministry, considered the conference to be a victory for behind-the-scenes Israeli diplomacy.

“The fact that the Paris conference has no follow-up is, from our perspective the most meaningful accomplishment,” Rotem told Israel Radio Monday morning. “Even though we did not attend the conference, we succeeded in getting across our position.”

image: https://www.breakingisraelnews.com/wp-content/uploads/useful_banner_manager_banners/471-BombardBibles-600WIDE.jpg

Bombard Them With Bibles. Send the White House and the United Nations a Bible Now!
Perhaps the most significant reason for Israel to breathe a sigh of relief was the specific point concerning Jerusalem. The UN resolution referred to East Jerusalem as “Palestinian territory” with Israel’s claim to the Temple Mount and the Western Wall having “no legal validity”. The Paris conference dialled that back considerably, warning against any acts that would “prejudge the outcome of negotiations on final status issues, including, inter alia, on Jerusalem”. This ambiguous statement was also intended as a subtle warning to US President elect Donald Trump, who promised American voters and the Israeli government that he would move the US Embassy to Jerusalem.

The Paris conference also saw at least one major player having a change of heart. Britain, which played a major role in advancing the UN resolution, attended the Paris conference as an observer, choosing not to sign the final statement.

The British government released an official statement to the press, which read:

“We have particular reservations about an international conference intended to advance peace between the parties that does not involve them – indeed which is taking place against the wishes of the Israelis – and which is taking place just days before the transition to a new American President when the US will be the ultimate guarantor of any agreement. There are risks therefore that this conference hardens positions at a time when we need to be encouraging the conditions for peace. That’s why we have attended in an observer status and have not signed up to the communique.”

Indeed, Trump’s impending inauguration loomed over the conference, dulling the anti-Israel edge. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said at his cabinet meeting on Sunday, ““This conference is among the last twitches of yesterday’s world. Tomorrow’s world will be different — and it is very near.”

With four days left to Obama’s presidency, Secretary of State John Kerry, who attended the Paris conference, promised Netanyahu that there would not be any follow-up action to the Paris conference and that Washington would oppose any further political action at the Security Council.

Perhaps the most telling sign that the conference was not as anti-Israel as intended was PA President Mahmoud Abbas’ last-minute decision to cancel his meeting with French President Francois Hollande, scheduled for Sunday. French Authorities announced on Monday that no new date for the meeting has been scheduled.


Read more at https://www.breakingisraelnews.com/82159/82159/#x36FqKK2g7L07UDr.99


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Mike

 2017/1/17 22:28Profile
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 Re: 70 Nations Paris Peace Conference Total Dud, Anti Israel Gathering Defeated

Thanks Docs for keeping us informed on this.
Also thanks Mike for the update, which is encouraging for the time being.

Just been reading Joel again which talks about them dividing up the land and the ultimate re-gathering of Israel and of course God gathering the nations in the valley of Jehoshaphat for judgement.

Docs you made an important point here.. "The Bible is full of examples that a prophecy can have a immediate and limited fulfillment in the near future when it is first given only to have a complete and exhaustive fulfillment in the far eschatological future."

This is very true and important to understand in reading bible prophecy. This (I understand from more learned men than me) was how prophecy was understood in biblical Judaism. We see it in many places in scripture, even in the NT the apostles interpreted OT prophecy this way. For example Matthew quotes from the OT "out of Egypt I called my Son" as being fulfilled when Joseph brought Jesus back from their stay in Egypt to Israel, but we know it's immediate OT meaning was the exodus under Moses.
I see this in Joel where his prophecy starts with describing the coming Babylonian captivity, but moves right into a future more catastrophic judgement and final establishing of the Kingdom as if it is all one event, but with the benefit of other prophecy and history we know it is not one event but a series of events spread out over many years.


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Dave

 2017/1/18 11:37Profile
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Joined: 2006/9/16
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 Re:

I very much agree with what you have spoken of regarding Jesus coming out of Egypt etc. and the great catastrophic judgment Joel speaks of. The principle that you speak of regarding a near/far fulfillmnet pattern of Biblical prophecy really IS the rule and not the exception. Multiple examples of this principle can be found throughout the scripture and is indispensible in understanding prophecy. In this regard, if Jerusalem was surrounded by armies in 70 AD (Luke 21:20)this event still did not bring about the second coming of the son of man which is where Jesus went in His reply in the Olivet Discourse. This had a limited fulfillment in the events of 70 AD when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies but can still have a complete and exhaustive fulfillment in the future. The same with the abomination of desolation. Jesus connected His second coming with events that begin with a latter day abomination of desolation. Jesus stated, "When you SEE the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet" (Matt 24:15). Paul followed up in II Thess 2:3-4). In fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy, Antiochus performed an abomination in the temple as well as the armies of Titus in 70 AD. But neither resulted in the second coming of the son of man at the last and great trumpet (Matt 24:31, I Cor 15:52)). No great trumpet sounded in 70 AD.

It's that which is ELECT and set aside by God that Satan and the principalities and powers hate.

- Christ
- Israel and the Jews (including the land)
- Jerusalem
- The Church

All elect and set aside and therefore hated and targeted by Satan. Besides the present LAND controversy in Israel, tied in its own self to the ever present "Jewish question," no other event in history has generated such vehement hatred and opposition except the claims of the gospel itself. So I'm thinking something of a divine cause and effect must be present today regarding the land controversy which is the center peiece of so much world attention and the coming epi-center of increasing world turmoil. The church therefore needs to regain at least a reasonable amount of prophetic literacy to be able to understand in more depth that these things have not been prophesied of in the dark.


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David Winter

 2017/1/18 13:32Profile
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Joined: 2008/10/25
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 Re:

Quote:
by TMK
The future 2nd coming is literal I believe because that is when, in my view, the rapture occurs and the new heavens and earth are created (while we are raptured) after which we will return to the recreated earth to reign with Him forever.


Not to split hairs (...but) :), the new heaven and the new earth are not mentioned until after the judgment and starts in Rev 21:1. I'm not mentioning this to start an argument, you know that I wouldn't argue with you, Todd!!!

I don't know if I'm right or not but going by Rev 20, it seems the first resurrection (what some call the rapture) happens, the 1000 year reign of Christ, the judgment of satan, the judgment of the dead and finally death and hell are cast into the lake of fire.

This does challenge some Christian's belief system in the end time but Revelation is part of the word of God!

God bless you and just my two cents worth, friends,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2017/1/18 13:35Profile





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