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 Re:

quote:Also I am saying that we are not called to preach persecution but we can be called to warn of persecution.

Yes Brother, we are called to preach Christ and Him crucified...and yes, warn of persecution. Persecution sounds quite sad and fearful, but what really encourages me is the many testimonies I've heard from those who have endured persecution.

Have you had the opportunity to listen to testimonies through The Voice of the Martyrs, or Opens Doors?...perhaps other ministries? The many testimonies are
incredible! The exceeding joy they have is beyond my comprehension.

Richard Wurmbrand said something that pierced my heart...he said, "The only joyful people I've known are those in prison, those in the bible, and those suffering persecution."

The scripture below explains so much better than I can. Somehow we learn obedience through the things we suffer, and those who suffer cease from sin.

1 Peter 4: Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

7 But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers. 8 And above all things have fervent love for one another, for “love will cover a multitude of sins.” 9 Be hospitable to one another without grumbling. 10 As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11 If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.


12 Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; 13 but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy. 14 If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people’s matters. 16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.

17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now

“If the righteous one is scarcely saved,
Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”
19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator.

 2016/11/12 20:47









 Re: Staff

"The persecution gospel"is another gospel it lacks any sense of grace and releys on fear."

Really staff. Respectfully that statement above does not have any warrant in the New Testament. The "persecution gospel" is not another gospel. It is the gospel.

Staff I ask respectfully have you read the book of 1st Peter. This book speaks of the persecution of believers. This book has the theme of the grace of God throughout the book. But it is the grace of God that will enable believers to live through and walk victoriously through the fires of persecution.

If you have not read this book I would encourage you and others in this forum to read and meditate through this book. As I said the persecution gospel is not another gospel. But the Gospel of Jesus Christ as one where one must pick up their cross and die to themselves. And this will come about through the fires of persecution.

Consider the words of Jesus in Luke 9:23-24,

... If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake, he is the one who will save it...

These are the words of Jesus himself. Jesus is saying that if anyone wishes to follow Him they must be prepared to die for Him. Even to the point of laying down their physical life. Bonhoeffer was quoted as saying when Christ bids a man to come to him he bids him to come and die.

Those who followed Jesus on the early church were taught the persecution would be a way of life in their discipkeship. On Acts 14:22, Paul and Barnabas went about strengthening the souls of the disciples encouraging them to continue in the faith by saying through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God. These were believers who were only at best a few months old in the faith. Maybe even a few weeks. But they were told that to follow Christ would require a cross. And entrance into the kingdom would come through the fires of persecution. This is not fear preaching. But this is the preaching of faith in Jesus Christ.

Muslims are coming to Christ by the thousands on a daily basis in the Middle East. In restricted nations when a Muslim has had an encounter with the Risen Christ. And they desire to follow Jesus. They realize that they are marked for death. And that to embrace the Lord Jesus Christ and to take up his cross may very well mean that they will be killed the next day. This is a reality that Muslims who follow Christ live with daily in the Middle East and other parts of the world. This is the reality of what we call the persecuted church today. And respectfully this is a reality of the church I think you deny.

Believers in America are living in la-la land. They are living in a dream world. Believers in America have no concept of what it is to take up their cross to follow Jesus. Believers in America want the benefits of the cross in that it will save them from their sins and the blood of Jesus will deliver them from the domain of the evil one. But Believers in America do not want the demands of the cross and that is to lay everything at the foot of the cross and be prepared to die for Jesus.

When believers voted for Donald Trump they were in essence voting for Donald Trump to maintain the status quo and to continue to live out their comfort and ease in America. Yet they were delivered from Hillary Clinton and the persecutions that she would have certainly braight against the Christians. But in voting for Donald Trump they have voted to continue their prosperous lifestyle and the choke out the Life of Christ as Jesus expounds in the thorny ground hearer. American Christians will continue for a time to maintain their prosperity. But in so choosing they are rejecting The Life of Christ and the purity that will certainly come or would have come through the fires of persecution.

Don Currin is right when he said that the best thing that can happen to the church in America is that she undergo the fire the persecution. I agree with this statement. But right now Satan is laughing his head off at the impotent Church in America. For surely this church that is putting their trust in Donald Trump is no threat to the kingdom of darkness. And I might add on the broad road of destruction.

But the enemy continues to tremble at the church in North Korea, Eritrea, Somalia, Iran and, land other parts of the world that are being persecuted. For out of the persecuted church in restricted nations are those martyrs who are overcoming the evil one by the blood of the Lamb, by the word of their testimony, and not loving their life even when faced with death. And I'm afraid the American church will not be counted worthy to enter the kingdom of God. For those believers who are trusting in Trump will not certainly have any rewards or reign with Jesus.

Forum you have gotten Donald Trump. You will rejoice with his victory. Yes you have denied Hillary Clinton the presidency. But I am afraid you have lost your right to reign with Jesus in heaven. But I do believe that there are a few who are trusting in Jesus. There is a remnant that God is raising up. It is a small remnant. But it is a remnant that will gladly take up their cross and Jesus and even be prepared to die for him. And for sure they will be martyred. But for sure there will be a few from America who follow Christ who will certainly reign with Jesus. I only pray that I am one of them.

-bbs-

 2016/11/13 6:31
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1566


 Re:

Hi Bear,
I just dont agree with almost anything you say here its all "red herring" dialogue.
We have a Vice President that is a full on Christian and you cant say thats a good thing,we will have a President on an anti Abortion stance and you cant say thats a good thing,thats the point it doesnt play with your narrative.
The majority of the time Time Jesus or Paul didnt preach perssecution whereas the majority of the time members of the forum preach persecution thats the difference.Mind you none of them seem to make any kind of "nailed down prophesy" of when that persecution will come.
Again you quote the Church is putting its trust in Donald Trump even though all the posters have said our trust is in Jesus but recognise Gods hand in this election.
Because you cannot recognise Gods hand in the election(or maybe you think he cant interfere with elections) you then logically follow on your view that America should be poor,small remant(basically elitist) rewards etc,

Let me hear you admit its good to have Vice President thats a Christian and Its good that a President campaigned against Abortion???Surely you have to agree with that.Its hard to accept anything else if you cant agree with the obvious
Yours Staff

 2016/11/13 7:36Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1566


 Re:

Hi Sherri2,
Lets all go to Korea and Eritrea then it will be good for us!
No Persecuiton preaching has its place but it shouldnt take up such a high percentage as it is with some of the posters on SI.When it does it becomes another gospel and ungraceful.
Their was a time when Paul was persecuted badly but their was a time where he had a house to live and recieve people in where he had no persecuiton.

Let me hear you rejoice when good things happen
I challenge you to admit that its a good thing we have a Vice President thats a full on Christian and that its good that the new President campaigned on against Abortion......
Yours Staff

 2016/11/13 7:49Profile









 Re:

"Christians that voted so as to keep Hillary Clinton out of office are not rejecting Christ nor acting under the influence of delusional seducing spirits."

Amen to that!

 2016/11/13 9:22
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2219


 Re:

/When believers voted for Donald Trump they were in essence voting for Donald Trump to maintain the status quo and to continue to live out their comfort and ease in America. Yet they were delivered from Hillary Clinton and the persecutions that she would have certainly braight against the Christians. But in voting for Donald Trump they have voted to continue their prosperous lifestyle and the choke out the Life of Christ as Jesus expounds in the thorny ground hearer. American Christians will continue for a time to maintain their prosperity. But in so choosing they are rejecting The Life of Christ and the purity that will certainly come or would have come through the fires of persecution./

It seems it can be legitimately asked if a church actively seeking its own persecution and martydom is seeking the glory of God or its own glory. One cannot wish for or browbeat the church into persecution before God's own appointed time. Nor can they nor should they assign a second rate staus to those not undergoing persecution.

/And I'm afraid the American church will not be counted worthy to enter the kingdom of God. For those believers who are trusting in Trump will not certainly have any rewards or reign with Jesus.

Forum you have gotten Donald Trump. You will rejoice with his victory. Yes you have denied Hillary Clinton the presidency. But I am afraid you have lost your right to reign with Jesus in heaven./

So if we perhaps voted to keep Mrs. Clinton out of office we are no longer saved? These words bring condemnation good bro when one reads them and not conviction. There's a vast difference. A subtle type of righteousness by works - works/ righteousness - may be in play here. Meaning you earn a higher standard of righteousness and acceptance by God by undergoing persecution or martydom and the exchange of His righteousness for our sinfulness at the cross is subtly exchanged by adding a bit of human effort and merit into the mix.

Even the early church that was persecuted in Jerusalem ended up fleeing to other places instead of just staying in Jerusalem and perpaps being martyred. They looked after themselves and thieir lives in the mopst practical manner. There doing so did nothing to diminsh the martydom of Stephen and others. There is a high premium God places on those who undergo martydom but it can't be said that the church not undergoing persecution or martydom is second rate in God's eyes. All soldiers are trained to fight and perhaps die but not all experience that. Soldiers who fight and live are not second rate or living beneath their calling.

/And I'm afraid the American church will not be counted worthy to enter the kingdom of God. For those believers who are trusting in Trump will not certainly have any rewards or reign with Jesus./

What if they believe in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus at Calvary? Where does it say that one becomes "worthy" by suffering persecution instead of what transpired at Calvary? How can voting for Trump and against same sex marriage and abortion on demand cause one to lose their reward in heaven? This type of negative works/rightoeusness needs to be guarded against.

No one is thoughtless of or careless or unaware of the fires the peresecuted church is undergoing. Yet wishing it on all Christians before it is time is fruitless. If it's coming it's coming yet in God's time. Perhaps this election gave us a bit of a reprieve even if short lived. I don't feel condemned or not "worthy" because of that.

Meanwhile, my hat is sincerely off to those working for and on behalf of the persecuted church.

Blessings.



_________________
David Winter

 2016/11/13 9:30Profile









 Re:

I thank God for this thread, it is really helping me a lot!

It is curing me of extremism :-)

It is curing me of a bitter soul and a judgemental spirit.

Sometimes you just have to read what others write and then ask yourself, "wait a cotten-pickin minute, do I sound like that, is that how I come across to others? Am I really that much of a sourpuss? Negative and bitter yet justifying what is wrong in my thinking by beating up others with scripture taken out of context? Attempting to make myself look holier and more enlightened than others by some mysterious special knowledge that only a few special people have tapped into?"

Dear God save me from myself if that is the case.

Yes I am truly, truly thankful for this thread and others similar to it on SI because it scares me to know that if I continue to isolate myself from other brothers and sisters I may turn into a lemon sucking grinch who can never rejoice with those who rejoice and never see the good in anything or anybody.

 2016/11/13 9:34









 Re:

quote:"Lets all go to Korea and Eritrea then it will be good for us!
No Persecuiton preaching has its place but it shouldnt take up such a high percentage as it is with some of the posters on SI.When it does it becomes another gospel and ungraceful.
Their was a time when Paul was persecuted badly but their was a time where he had a house to live and recieve people in where he had no persecuiton.

Let me hear you rejoice when good things happen
I challenge you to admit that its a good thing we have a Vice President thats a full on Christian and that its good that the new President campaigned on against Abortion......"

Rejoice in the Lord always, again I say rejoice! ! For He alone is good! For He alone is worthy! Whatever His will, so be it. The Lord gives and He takes away, but I will choose to say, "Blessed be His name!" Jesus Christ is Lord!




 2016/11/13 11:12
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3316
Texas

 Re:

Quote:
CalvaryCom
"Christians that voted so as to keep Hillary Clinton out of office are not rejecting Christ nor acting under the influence of delusional seducing spirits."

Amen to that!


Here's another Amen!

I guessing that this scripture still holds true?

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Would Mr. Trump being elected fall under "ALL THINGS"?


_________________
Bill

 2016/11/13 11:32Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5628
NC, USA

 Re:

Bear-
You seem to be suggesting that christians should have voted for HC in order to hasten persecution. To that, I say balderdash.

You also seem to be blaming American christians for living in a land where there is not (yet) state persecution. And again I say, balderdash.


_________________
Todd

 2016/11/13 13:59Profile





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