Brother Bear ..I understand your heart in this, we can want something good so bad that , just like the puritans used to say our desires can bribe our discernment.

I think this is worthy topic though. There is a part of self in us all that still needs the cross. When I read about the chinese christians saying not to pray for relief my mind thought several things, things like false humility and pride, christians acting like buddhists monks whipping themselves to prove how holy and worthy they are in the sight of their god, things like that, and I may be wrong, probably am, but believe me brother bear, its all grace, its by grace you ve been saved through faith and that is a gift from GOD by faith and that not of our own effort or works. God Bless Bro.

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D.Miller

Greg that is an excellent point.

In his "one thing you lack" sermon Art Katz says that if we aren't experiencing persecution in some form we are ipso facto living below the Kingdom level.

I don't think that necessarily means constant and oppressive persecution but persecution nonetheless.

Ravenhill asked how the world could not get along with the holiest man who ever lived but it can get along with us- "are we compromised? Have we no righteousness that bears on their corruption?"

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Todd

Yeah, it's not always about soldiers taking your homes and locking you up.

How many who have come to Christ have had to choose between Him and their family members? Probably all of us. And then your earthly family turns on you in many and various ways. How many are persecuted at work because you stand for Jesus? And how many are persecuted by other "church" friends because you won't engage in the same things that they think it is ok to engage in? Now, this present government is persecuting Christians albeit in subtle ways right now.

Great posts Greg & TMK!

One other thing I have thought of:

Often we take that verse "if they persecute you in one place, flee to another" as an all encompassing command for all people to all times and all places. I'm not sure it's an absolutized scriptural command to everyone everywhere forever. It may have a generally applicable principle, but isn't "absolute" to all men throughout all ages in all places. It was given to the disciples for an immediate contextual application on a specific application for them. And there have been MANY missionaries & great men & women of God called NOT TO FLEE at times, but stay and be a witness in tough places under persecution. My good friend David Servant (whom is on the site and js preached at SI Conferences) has many ministries. One of them is to North Koreans who escape to China. One such young girl was found by a brother in China & taken in. Though hard to the Gospel at first, she softened & eventually came to Jesus. She began reading scripture & studying God's Word day and night. And what did this beautiful young Korean conclude the spirit of God was leading her to do? Yep, sneak back into N Korea to be a faithful witness to all of her lost friends/family, etc.!! Similar testimonies are known in Syria & other such places to this day. So just because Jesus said it in scripture to His 12 disciples in this one instance, I don't think it's a blanket statement for all people in all times/places forever necessarily. We must be led by the spirit.

Similarly, the "if they don't receive you, shake the dust off your feet & move on to another city" instruction Jesus specifically gave his disciples one time in scripture also isn't necessarily a "proof text" of absolute doctrine for everyone in all times. If you've done much evangelism in the USA in the last 2 decades, you've probably wondered about this at some point 😊.

Just an observation when thinking about these passages.

Julius- I think those are good analogies.

Jeff- I agree that the command to go from one city to another to avoid persecution was time specific.

But there is a slight distinction to be made in the example you gave. The girl did not go back into N Korea in order to be persecuted; she went in because she was obedient to the Lord. It is a subtle but important distinction. Even if she was guaranteed to be persecuted if she went back in, that is not what she was seeking. She was just being obedient. If I knew her I would have been praying for safety and freedom from persecution.

Missionaries who stay in dangerous areas may find that persecution is a by product of their obedience.

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Todd

Yes TMK,
I don't disagree. Of course she wasn't seeking persecution by going back in, but we all know severe persecution is likely what she will get in N Korea at some point. So it's not apples to oranges with what the Chinese underground church were praying, but we all know they have real persecution there and we don't here. Let's not compare our "persecution" (family, friends, work, Guy cussing you out on the street, etc.) as an equivalent with N Korean, or apostolic era Jewish, or Islamic, etc. persecution. I believe the Chinese church was essentially praying "lord, do whatever it takes to grow them, even persecution if that's what it takes."

We are not to compare ourselves with one another. Everyone has challenges in their own situation. We are called to encourage and pray for one another not wish harm on each other.

I don't wish the "pleasures" that the West has on any Christian. Some of you know what I mean. For some reason, people think it is easy being a Christian in the "land of plenty".

We all have the same Enemy who is just as able to deceive and trap and wear you out no matter what country you live in.

It doesn't matter what is happening externally to us, it all comes down to what is happening in our heart. People can backslide in any country and as well they can overcome in any country.

Amen.

All who desire to live godly lives WILL suffer persecution!
No two ways about it. You won't have to pray for it, it will surely come.
From family, social media, government laws contrary to God, religious people, sinners who hate having their sins exposed etc.

Our prayer for one another should be in accordance with the apostles and with Christ: for unity in the body, for enlightened hearts and minds,for the work of the Spirit in and through us, revival etc. and of course for whatever specific needs we may have.

Blessings,

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William