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 Re:

From Zac's Revelation Series (if you want to know what he believes).

Referring to the 144,000.

"The godly remnant in Israel is protected during the time of wrath, but the church itself is raptured to stand before the Lord. Just before the wrath of God is poured out on the earth, the dead in Christ will rise and along with the living ones will be taken up to meet the Lord in the air to welcome Him back to earth – like a bride going out to welcome her bridegroom. They stand “before the throne and before the Lamb” (verse 9). In Israel, there will be at that time, a godly remnant who have not become Christians. The Lord will protect them from His wrath."

He believes in a pre-wrath rapture but believes during God's wrath being poured out, only sinners living in the country of Israel will be saved and not any other sinners around the world. He calls them a "godly remnant", before they even become Christians.

"In Israel, there will be at that time, a godly remnant who have not become Christians. The Lord will protect them from His wrath."

A godly remnant that have not become Christians???

Out of a nation with almost 6 million people, Zac thinks the 144,000 is representative of an exact number of people that make up the godly remnant. He does not believe it is a representative number of "thousands upon thousands" (without number) of OT and NT (12x12) saints.

He says this about the 144,000:
"The 144,000 here are not the ones we saw earlier in chapter 7. Those were from the tribes of Israel alone – and the tribes of Israel certainly do not follow the Lamb or believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. This is another group altogether. These are the ones who are called “overcomers” in Revelation 2 and 3. A name represented character in the Old Testament. So “the Name of the Lamb and of the Father” being on the foreheads of these 144,000 indicates that their lives reflected the nature of the Lamb and of the Father."

"In the final battle of Armageddon, the Antichrist and his forces will come into the land of Israel and attack it. At that time, the Lord Jesus Christ will come down with His saints. His feet will stand upon the mount of Olives, and He will destroy the forces of the antichrist. The people of God will watch and share in that victory without fighting at all."

He is pretty much a literalist with all the figurative language of the OT and Revelation but says the prophecies are fulfilled spiritually in the Church. So, he is using many OT prophecies again, that have already been fulfilled as waiting to be fulfilled again, literally.

Here is an example of what he does with scripture:
"There are many promises in the Old Testament that we can apply to ourselves spiritually. But they will also be literally fulfilled in the nation of Israel before Jesus establishes His kingdom on earth. Joel 2:28 says, “It will come about after this that I will pour out My Spirit upon all mankind, And your sons and daughters shall prophesy. Your old men will see dreams. I will pour out My Spirit in those days. The sun will turn into darkness, the moon into blood before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes”. The first part of this was fulfilled spiritually on the day of Pentecost when the first disciples were baptised in the Holy Spirit. It will be literally fulfilled in Israel when the day of the Lord comes."

Pretty standard, post-trib, pre-wrath teaching. Nothing new.

http://www.cfcindia.org/resources/en/books/pdf/TFT.pdf

 2016/9/2 10:05
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Since this discussion is very civil and uplifting, I want to make on observation aimed at what Savannah said. Savannah, you say that the great tribulation already occurred. I agree totally that what happened in Jerusalem around 70 ad and what has continued to happen to the church has been tribulation and it has been great. The only problem I have with accepting the same stance you take is that there are other things listed as occurring at the same time that have not happened yet. Paul quotes Joel as saying that there would be catastrophic signs in the earth and heavens and that the sun would be darkened and the moon turned to blood. Matthew repeats this as well as saying that the coming of the Lord would immediately follow this tribulation and would be as evident as lightning in the sky, that all would see it.

This has been the sticking point for me where pretarism is concerned. It seems I either have to rip Matthew 24 apart, claim that part of it is literal and part is figurative, or reject the view that these prophecies are already fulfilled. How to you see this? Is there a way you look at these verses and fit them into your eschatalogical view?


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Travis

 2016/9/2 16:00Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1546


 Re:

Hi Tmk,
Yeah I dont see it has mid trib rather than mid week and the last part of the week being "the great tribulation".
Also I follow the pattern that I believe God set out before me.I have explained this indepth before.
Only one person is tied to 3 1/2 years and that is Elijah.
If you study Elijah you will see that it shows what is going to happen in the end.In fact I would say you cannot have an idea what is going on in the end without studying Elijah.
Yes I think you will have the general timeframe when the rapture perhaps not the day or week.
Yours Staff
I take it all my other points are ok with you!

 2016/9/2 16:19Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by twayneb on 2016/9/2 16:00:10

Since this discussion is very civil and uplifting, I want to make on observation aimed at what Savannah said. Savannah, you say that the great tribulation already occurred. I agree totally that what happened in Jerusalem around 70 ad and what has continued to happen to the church has been tribulation and it has been great. The only problem I have with accepting the same stance you take is that there are other things listed as occurring at the same time that have not happened yet. Paul quotes Joel as saying that there would be catastrophic signs in the earth and heavens and that the sun would be darkened and the moon turned to blood. Matthew repeats this as well as saying that the coming of the Lord would immediately follow this tribulation and would be as evident as lightning in the sky, that all would see it.

This has been the sticking point for me where pretarism is concerned. It seems I either have to rip Matthew 24 apart, claim that part of it is literal and part is figurative, or reject the view that these prophecies are already fulfilled. How to you see this? Is there a way you look at these verses and fit them into your eschatalogical view?



Hi twayneb,

This is the language of hyperbole. Consider:
Isa 13::6-11; 34:2-4

Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Haggai 2:6
For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;

Zeph. 1:14,15
15 - That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness


At the breaking of the sixth seal by Jesus Christ, John (who has read Isaiah) sees a destructive scenario that he can only describe in terms of a complete cosmological upheaval (so he uses the language in Isa. 34). The images he uses are those of a "great earthquake," the "sun became black...," the "whole moon became like blood," "the stars of the sky fell to the earth," "the sky was split apart...," and "every mountain and island were moved out of their places" (6:12-14).

These are figurative metaphors John is using in the language of hyperbole to give emphasis to judgment and destruction.

But, if this were referring to an actual cosmological catastrophe then the persons mentioned in Rev. 6:15 would have had no place to hide themselves. They would all be dead.

Excerpts from James Fowler

 2016/9/2 16:20
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1546


 Re:

Hi Bearmaster
I Knew this would have to pop up and I pointed it out earlier.
1:Post Trib believers blurring the line between Presecution(tribulation implied i take it) and the period of time called "The Great Tribulation" as you have just done.
2:Again their are times like Corrie Ten Boom when she is being persecuted and Times of Billy Graham where he is not.You cant use either to prove the period of time called "The Great Tribulation".Only Scripture.
3:Pre Tribulation believers are less of a Christian than a Post Tribulation believer.This Time we are "Scoffers"
4:We will indeed suffer Persecution as I said before ;all the Pre Tribbers(i know) believe we have persecution in this life.
Yours Staff

 2016/9/2 16:31Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4526


 Re:

This topic has been debated since for more than a decade in these forums.

I lean toward a pre-tribulation rapture. This isn't to say that my mind cannot change. It doesn't mean that I am so loyal or devoted to this perspective that I do not have a teachable spirit on this matter either. It also doesn't mean that I think believers are exempt from great tribulation in this world -- and more so as the end comes and the days grow more evil.

It simply means that, after much study and prayer, I feel that this conclusion -- that the Lord will gather His Bride prior to the wrath of God poured out upon the entire world -- makes the most sense from my study of God's Word.

Still, I am entirely aware that I could be incorrect. I am prepared to serve God wholeheartedly if I am incorrect. Keith Green used to teach that we should "pray for pre-trib but prepare for post-trib." David Wilkerson (who, according to Times Square Church, embraced a pre-trib rapture) used to say that he was "pan-trib" -- that everything would "pan out" for believers in the end.

Someone else said it well: We are secure in Christ. As long as our hearts are firm in the Lord...and as long as we are aware that we may endure the period of God's wrath upon this world...then we should avoid pointing the fingers at those believers as "deceived."

I just wish that this topic could be discussed without it growing so terribly divisive.

*EDIT - I am not implying that anyone here has been uncivil or divisive. I haven't even read through the entire thread yet (just a few pages). However, it has been a tradition in this forum that this topic is discussed at length before ultimately turning divisive. I hope that no one thinks that I was stating this about anyone here.


_________________
Christopher

 2016/9/3 0:38Profile









 Re:

I lean towards experiencing the resurrection life of Jesus, now! Anyone else? I'm glad this topic has been discussed in a very loving and brotherly way.

 2016/9/3 1:06
StirItUp
Member



Joined: 2016/6/4
Posts: 949
Johannesburg, South Africa

 Re:

Yes!

Christ is made unto us wisdom from God, that is Justification (Righteousness), Sanctification (set apart from sin to serve the living God) and glorification (the transformation of our lowly bodies into a glorious eternal sinless body!)
I.O.W. Jesus Christ makes us right with God, gives us victory over the power of sin-NOW-and is our Living hope for a final resurrection to Eternal Life.

What matters today, and every day, is that we remain in Him through faith and love...and that we heed the admonition in Hebrews: let us not forsake the gathering together of the saints...encouraging one another to love and good works, especially as we see The DAY approaching!
The Day?...that final Day when Christ appears and His great salvation plan in us is perfected and consummated :)

Blessings,


_________________
William

 2016/9/3 3:06Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

http://daniel11truth.com/index_htm_files/1.png


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Phillip

 2016/9/3 6:48Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5584
NC, USA

 Re:

travis wrote:

"This has been the sticking point for me where pretarism is concerned. It seems I either have to rip Matthew 24 apart, claim that part of it is literal and part is figurative, or reject the view that these prophecies are already fulfilled. How to you see this? Is there a way you look at these verses and fit them into your eschatalogical view?"

It was my sticking point as well, until I heard a partial preterist teacher I really respect explain it all.

http://theos.org/media/category/14/ (tab down to Mt. 24- there are a few lectures on Mt 24)

A very general answer is that the passages in Joel, and even the Olivet Discourse, are apocalyptic in nature; a form of Hebrew writing, just as the great majority of Revelation is apocalyptic. Isaiah also has a lot of apocalyptic portions.

Josephus reports that there were indeed "signs in the sky" during the Jewish war in 70 AD.

When Jesus, in the Olivet DIscourse, talks about coming on the clouds, he is talking about coming on the clouds in judgment against Jerusalem in 70 AD, in the same generation of those He was speaking to, his disciples. Remember he said all this would take place in their generation.

Now, I am not sure how "preterist" Savannah is. I am a partial preterist; I don't think Jesus' 2nd coming was in 70 AD nor do I think a secret rapture took place in 70 AD. I believe the 2nd Coming is literal and yet future.

However, I do believe it is not hard at all, if one keeps in mind the nature of the language of Jesus' prophetic statements in the OD (apocalyptic), to come to the conclusion that he was talking about coming in judgement to end the Jewish temple system forever in 70 AD.

If you read Josephus's account of the horrors going on in Jerusalem during the siege, you will come to the conclusion that it was indeed great tribulation to the point that the only explanation was massive demonic activity within the city.


_________________
Todd

 2016/9/3 10:35Profile





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