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 Re:

Quote:
by dolfan on 2016/7/29 13:22:40

There is a spiritual reality behind everything we do. That doesn't dispense with the doing. hat would be actually quite a Gnostic proposition.



Of course not! Because an object lesson in humility is not to only be duplicated by the same action, but disseminated in our heart and manifested throughout our lives in MANY actions of humility. Gnosticism would be to sit back and philosophize about humility and engage in ceremonial foot washing daily with other gnostic brothers so that everyone "feels" humble.

Quote:
Words are symbols of deeper realities, yet we speak the gospel in words because by it men are saved.



Not just words but actions are also symbolic of deeper realities and not to just be duplicated or set in rituals. The Lord's action to wash the feet of Judas, was an object lesson in humility towards those who have ill will towards you and wish you harm. Yet, we have institutionalized the object lesson amongst those who we love and love us. Where is the humility of serving those who hate us?

 2016/7/29 13:58









 Re:

My point was that when we do good to others we should do it in secret so our heavenly Father can see it. We shouldn't do it so other people can see it, and praise us for it.

 2016/7/29 14:10
dolfan
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Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1634
Alabama

 Re:

Quote:

by Julius21 on 2016/7/29 12:58:11

Quote:
by dolfan on 2016/7/29 13:22:40

There is a spiritual reality behind everything we do. That doesn't dispense with the doing. hat would be actually quite a Gnostic proposition.



Of course not! Because an object lesson in humility is not to only be duplicated by the same action, but disseminated in our heart and manifested throughout our lives in MANY actions of humility. Gnosticism would be to sit back and philosophize about humility and engage in ceremonial foot washing daily with other gnostic brothers so that everyone "feels" humble.

Quote:
Words are symbols of deeper realities, yet we speak the gospel in words because by it men are saved.



Not just words but actions are also symbolic of deeper realities and not to just be duplicated or set in rituals. The Lord's action to wash the feet of Judas, was an object lesson in humility towards those who have ill will towards you and wish you harm. Yet, we have institutionalized the object lesson amongst those who we love and love us. Where is the humility of serving those who hate us?



Gnosticism would say the act is irrelevant because the materiality of the flesh involved in the act is evil and because the deeper spiritual truth is all that matters. To dispense with the symbol that Jesus commanded us to do in favor of the spiritual truth at which the symbol aims is a gnostic style of thought. The truth Himself said to do it. Not to select acts of service that we would substitute for it, but to do it in the assembly of believers. It is a unifying act of submissive love in the assembly and is part of life in fellowship. Cleaning toilets may be loving. Cutting lawns. Fixing leaky faucets. All commendable and not to be minimized. None of those are washing feet in the assembly and are not substitutes, nor was foot washing aiming at such acts. It is easy to say that foot washing is an object lesson merely, but Jesus coupled it with a command to His disciples to do it.

No one suggests that these things be made into mere rituals that substitute for the reality. That argument has not been made here. To reduce foot washing to an object lesson on interpersonal relations strikes me as fully outside of the Scripture and ignores the context in which Jesus made the command. If acts of humble submission generally were the aim, Jesus could have added a reminder of Mary's ointment on His feet. In fact, He had already done so, making the mention of her act a memorial forever. But, He said to the disciples to wash each other BECAUSE He had washed them. This washing that He commands is for the assembled ekklesia of disciples, in the setting of communion, which indeed IS the reason to assemble at all, to yield to one another AS the gathered church.

Practically, washing feet is a unifying act. In conjunction with the examination and celebration of communion, the purpose of which both shows forth the death of Jesus until He comes and propels us forward in heart and spirit to the promise of His coming, washing the saints's feet debases men's agendas and preferences for themselves, brings to immediate mind that humble submission Paul urges in Philippians 2 to have the mind toward one another the heart of the very kenosis of Jesus so that we empty all of ourselves that we would grasp as worthy to hold onto in favor of the cause of Christ, the exaltation of His name, and the equality of our worth to Him (as EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father).

Now, is it an ordinance. No. I won't make that argument. Is it a command? Yes. Is it mere ritual? No. Is it an act that, when obeyed in the literal sense of the command and in the inner sense of Paul's great observations of Philippians 2, edifies the body in a unique way? Better believe it.


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 2016/7/29 15:31Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by Tozsu on 2016/7/29 14:10:39

My point was that when we do good to others we should do it in secret so our heavenly Father can see it. We shouldn't do it so other people can see it, and praise us for it.



So true!

Matthew 23:5
But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.


 2016/7/29 16:55
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 Re:

Quote:
It saddens me that we are so stubbornly extreme with our thinking and set up so many false dichotomies as a result. It is always "either/or" and never "both/and" - for example, one who takes such hard and fast positions as: "foot washing is to be seen as symbolic and not to be practiced and to do so would be to make a dead religious ordinance of it and miss the spiritual meaning."

It's: Either "don't practice it and grasp the symbolic meaning" or, "practice it and miss the symbolic meaning."

Instead of: "It is both symbolic and has practical benefit in the physical observance of it, and we ought not to sacrifice one in favor of the other thinking that they are inherently mutually exclusive."

This, in my estimation, is pride. "I am right and there is no way I can be wrong and I don't need to be taught about humble service by acting out a very humble act of service and there is nothing in the practice of it that I can learn about the spiritual meaning of it - I already know what it entails!"




Thank you forrest for your meaningful post that really lies the axe to the root of the issue, it truly is not an are of division. May we go forth in unity with saints who differ but learn from each other where we can. We are all deficient in an area if we humble ourselves we can learn much from brethren.


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 2016/7/29 17:38Profile









 Re:

Well said Forrests & Greg. Pride is such a sneaky thing. Especially when cloaked in a religious spirit & "scripture quoting" to win an argument (which often/usually involves using scriptures like a sword instead of a balm, especially stretched out of context to "make a point"). And the stance of total "absolutism" on these type things making it a war of "either/or" doesn't necessarily have to be so. Some things are crystal clear. Some not as black and white as we might want to make them. Dogmatism one way or the other can be a sneaky form of self-confident pride. The verse that comes to mind at times is "where there is much speaking, sin is not absent." A verse I need to reconsider from time to time myself too. We would likely all do well to consider it's meaning. If we only think of "I know who needs to hear & think about that verse" & it is never humbly (before God) like the disciples: "is it me Lord?" Then pride is not absent.

 2016/7/29 17:47
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

Heres pauls comand so to speak about woman washing the feet of the saints ,,,,,,strange it mentioned again in the new testament ...

…9A widow should be enrolled if she is at least sixty years old, the wife of one man, 10and well known for good deeds such as bringing up children, entertaining strangers, washing the feet of the saints, imparting relief to the afflicted, and devoting herself to every good work.

Why not twist these text and explain away clear teachings of paul , to timothey ,if we can do that here ,we may as well do it it , for the requirments of an elder and a decon....

 2016/7/29 18:19Profile









 Re:

That's interesting. I have read that many times and it's never really stood out I guess.

 2016/7/29 18:44









 Re: Bro D.Fella

my dear brother,
loved reading your post, it was sweet, edifying.

a rarity.

God love you, neil

 2016/7/29 19:00
JFW
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Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1438
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: Foot Washing

Several years ago there was a brother of mine who was part of the worship team at my church that was a good friend of mine. We talked intimately of our faith and of our struggles and shared a fellowship together that I came to appreciate. It came to my attention that my friend had been using our friendship covertly to get info that he could use to gain advantage with a member of my family. Without going into unnecessary details, it was a grevious scheme that played out in the worst way and carried with it horrible consequences.

When this came to my attention, I after praying felt compelled to seek the counsel of my discipleship group. They thought the church leaders should be informed, specifically the music minister who is also a close brother and mentor to me. I was taken back at his initial response but later saw the wisdom of it. He inquired of the brother, who lied- denying any impropriety. So the pastor asked me if I had any definitive proof and if so to please share it with him. It took a while to obtain it but I did and shared it as he had requested. He was heartbroken for me and my family but also for our brother who had clearly become decevied. After presenting the evidence and obtaining a confession, my friend was removed from the worship team and tho church discipline was applied there was also a concerted effort to restore my friend to the fellowship of faith.

He was reluctant to meet with me, partly from shame and partly from fear as he thought I might do him bodily harm...but after a month or so the pastor was able to set a time up for us to meet and put this aside for good.
Now I had been very, very upset with my friend for not only betraying our friendship but also doing what was irreparable damage to my family and honestly I did consider hurting him more than once. Tho as the day approached where I had to meet with him, I sought the Lord and prayed continuously as I didn't want to miss His will in this. And you wanna kno what the Lord told me to do?.... You guessed it- wash his feet!!?

Now I confess this didn't set well with me and the Lord had to work on me to get me there but alas as the day came I had not only a peace but a joy that had been absent for some time.
My friend and I met in the pastors office and he didn't even want to look at me at first tho as the pastor lead us he came to confess and apologize and repented from his actions. After this the pastor asked me if I would like to say anything and I said no but there is something I must do. That startled my friend and he seemed a bit nervous. But I got up and walked down the hall to the cleaning station and grabbed a basin and filled it with water and grabbed a towel and some soap and reentered the office and my friend was now very confused. The pastor looked at me with a smile as my friend said what is that for? I said I'm gonna wash your feet brother so that you know that not only are you forgiven but I love you and you are still my brother in Christ. He loudly and nervously objected tho after the pastor told him that he should allow me the honor of doing so, for it was an act of obedience, he began to relent but it still took some time to get him to acquiesce. As soon as I untied his shoes, removing his socks and began washing them my friend broke, crying uncontrollably and came to true repentance because he was being loved in spite of his sins.

Now you can call this pride if you want,... but I call it grace and it was truly amazing:)

When I reported later to my discipleship group what had happened they too were stunned and the room fell silent... After a few moments of them looking around at each other, an elder asked aloud, you washed his feet!??? Saying, wow! Now that had to be Jesus cause no man would do that on his own after what he did,...I mean forgiveness is one thing but wash his feet!???

So I learned that if we will "lay ourselves down" and humble ourselves the Lord can use that to bring healing and hope where otherwise there is only religious ritual and moral deeds. This is the lesson that I get when I see/read Jesus humbling Himself to wash His disciples feet.
If we are compelled by love and acting in faith then even a cool glass of water....
If we are not,...just a clanging symbol-


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Fletcher

 2016/7/29 20:50Profile





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