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forrests
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Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re: Making a public show

Quote:
Making a public show of how humble we are is ....... pride



Are you insinuating that I am promoting "making a public show of how humble we are"?

Have you read the prior posts? Specifically mine? How do you conclude that I am promoting "making a public show of humility" in any way? I clearly said that the act of foot washing and having one's feet washed has a humbling effect, not that it was a demonstration of our great humility.

It is not wise to make a snap judgement of a brother or sister and/or their position based on how a thing appears on the surface, but instead we are instructed by Jesus to "judge with righteous judgement."

Maybe you could thoughtfully read what I have written and consider that I may see something that you are missing and not just relegate the whole matter to a "public show" and "pride" and consider that you may be misunderstanding us..

Was Jesus "making a public show" of His humility?

Well, if He can do it in a sincere and instructive and humble way, can others (by His Spirit, of course)?


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~ Forrest

 2016/7/29 13:30Profile
StirItUp
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Joined: 2016/6/4
Posts: 949
Johannesburg, South Africa

 Re:

Brenda says: "It (communion elements) would have been available in all churches but only the enlightened and Spirit baptised would not partake which has always been in lower figures."

That is simply fiction as it cannot be proven..........and then many of us must be un-enlightened and not Spirit baptized.

Brenda, I really do not know what to say without being offensive, so I will say no more, except, Paul wrote exactly what was revealed to him and what he expected to be practiced in all the churches.

In Him,

William


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William

 2016/7/29 13:32Profile
forrests
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Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re: Re-posting

I am pasting my previous comment below, and I hope this is not pride - I simply poured out my heart on the issue and believe there is benefit to be taken from reading it and don't want any help that the Lord may have for us in it to be lost by it's being buried so quickly. Please forgive me if this is self-indulgent or otherwise wrong.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In my OP you will see that I did not seek to promote foot washing as some dogmatic ordinance in the church. I do see baptism and the Lord's Supper as close to essential as one can get without ascribing an undue level of mysterious (almost occult) power to the ritual itself.

I do hold to a "symbolic" view of ordinances such as baptism and the Lord's Supper; and I also believe that they are instructive in the actual practicing of them as well. For example, it isn't baptism itself that has power per se (many are baptized in water and will still go to hell), but I believe that there is something powerful and real and spiritual that transpires in the heart when one, seeing the symbolic meaning, yields to the actual practice in a very real and physical way, and there is a faith working together with physical action that in some way is "perfected" (see James 2:22).

[I can hear some shouting, "It was faith and the action of obeying God and living according to your faith - not faith and a dead, religious ordinance," - to which I say, if God has spoken and expects obedience, even if it is a seemingly 'dead, religious ordinance' - then that is faithful obedience to Him and really no different. Listen to John the baptist and Peter: "Repent/Believe and be baptized!" Could one have heard the preaching of John or Peter and supposed themselves to have believed and then not submit to the ordinance of baptism? I think not.]

I believe you can get a glimpse of this in Paul's words: "...that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

We know it is by grace we are saved, through faith, and that it is not of works...but here Paul almost weds faith and confession as one complete (or "perfect", James 2:22) act of faith - and he clearly makes public confession of Christ mandatory for salvation. I see baptism as a time when that confession is often made, and also a way to 'confess' Christ with your whole body in perhaps a louder and clearer way than you could with your lips (and identify with Him in His death).

It saddens me that we are so stubbornly extreme with our thinking and set up so many false dichotomies as a result. It is always "either/or" and never "both/and" - for example, one who takes such hard and fast positions as: "foot washing is to be seen as symbolic and not to be practiced and to do so would be to make a dead religious ordinance of it and miss the spiritual meaning."

It's: Either "don't practice it and grasp the symbolic meaning" or, "practice it and miss the symbolic meaning."

Instead of: "It is both symbolic and has practical benefit in the physical observance of it, and we ought not to sacrifice one in favor of the other thinking that they are inherently mutually exclusive."

This, in my estimation, is pride. "I am right and there is no way I can be wrong and I don't need to be taught about humble service by acting out a very humble act of service and there is nothing in the practice of it that I can learn about the spiritual meaning of it - I already know what it entails!"

I do understand and agree that to observe (or rather insist on) foot washing and to fail to serve the body of Christ in other things is to strain at the gnat and swallow the camel, but to refuse the physical as unnecessary and foolish could reveal pride in the heart that disallows Jesus' spiritual cleansing.

As is, in my view, the cause of Jesus' warning to Peter: "If I do not wash you, you have no part with me." In other words, if you don't:

1) see yourself as dirty and in dire need of cleansing, and then

2) realize and admit the fact that you can't wash yourself, and

3) recognizing your helplessness, to humbly submit to letting the Lord and Teacher stoop down and wash you (a vivid reminder of your frailty and helplessness and His humility and love, to have such an exalted King stoop so low to do such a lowly thing says He was the only one who could and we are a mess and helpless),

Then you "have no part" with Jesus. You are lost, unregenerate and yet unclean - having never been born again and "washed with the water of regeneration."

But there are things that we learn by experience; and the act of washing the feet of my often stubborn and rebellious step-daughter taught me in an ever more intimate and deep way what it means to serve her and wash her as a servant and not to merely lord over her as a king and demand obedience and honor.

I see Paul yearning for this experiential knowledge of the Truth when he cried: "..that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;" Paul wanted to know Jesus in a more intimate way, and understood that to experience the same things He experienced would help him do this. He could identify with Jesus having suffered rejection by those He loved because he had endured the same, he and John could identify with Jesus being betrayed by a trusted friend because they evidently or likely were too, he could identify with loving God to the last breath because he too (as history/tradition reports) laid down his life for his friends: God and the church.

I also see this in Jesus himself when I see Him being baptized by John. Surely baptism doesn't do anything spiritual for us, in itself. The action of being submersed in water doesn't hold any mystical/spiritual powers, per se.

And even if it did (and it doesn't) - Jesus was sinless and was lacking nothing and it would seem unnecessary for Him to be baptized...surely He didn't need to learn from it...and others may get the idea that He was a sinner and needed cleansing and renewal if he allowed John to baptize Him, no? John's baptism was a baptism of repentance, after all...did Jesus need repentance? What are people going to think?! Oh no!

But that's just the thing...in allowing (insisting on) John to baptize Him he was identifying with us dirty humans and being identified with us in that aspect of our humanness: our need of repentance and cleansing. I'm sure it was a humbling experience for one who never sinned in His life to publicly practice a ritual that expresses repentance and washing - pride and self glorying would never permit this! Thank God Jesus was devoid of pride and self-glorying!

The "ritual" itself didn't have any special mystical power, but there is no better way to achieve the objective than to practice it publicly.

Do you, Juluis21 and Brenda7, really "stand here" in this forum and claim that there is nothing that you can learn about broken and humble selfless service to your brothers and sisters? Do you assert that you are absolutely sure that there is nothing you are missing? And if not (which I hope and trust that neither of you are so blind as to publicly assert such nonsense, even if in your heart you secretly believe it - as I admit I have and likely do): can you say with confidence that there is absolutely nothing that washing the feet of your brothers or sisters could do to teach you anything about humility or service? Especially the feet of those that have wronged you or misjudged you or rejected you or betrayed you? I hope you will truly take this to heart and ponder these things.

Even if you have done it before and it was empty and devoid of meaning, could that be because your heard was hard and empty of love and devoid of humility (in this area, at least)? I know that the Israelites practiced the religion God had ordained and gave them Himself and apparently to many it was just that: empty and devoid of any meaning and left the heart cold. Was that the fault of God or His religion? I say not.

I encourage you all (especially Julius and Brenda) to consider that there doesn't need to be such a dichotomy and false idea that to practice the 'ritual' makes it necessarily dead and meaningless and the spiritual/symbolic meaning is lost. I would encourage you to consider that there is some essential spiritual truth that God can convey to your heart and spirit in the practice of an ordinance mixed with faith and humility and love.

I would reckon to say that those who so readily mock and/or denigrate the practice of a ritual that others have been truly and deeply blessed in observing and also assume that those who assert that there is benefit in the 'ritual' are 'missing the point' - are very deficient and ignorant of the depth and reality and practice of the humble love that Jesus was teaching in washing His disciples feet; and the fact that they so publicly and boisterously come against it so quickly reveals that they are ignorant of just how deficient they are and are revealing themselves to be; and would likely benefit the most by allowing those that they oppose to wash their feet.


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~ Forrest

 2016/7/29 13:34Profile
StirItUp
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Joined: 2016/6/4
Posts: 949
Johannesburg, South Africa

 Re:

Good points Tim. Agreed. I can also say Wow! and not in a good way...


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William

 2016/7/29 13:38Profile









 Re:

Forrest, my comment was concerning the Idea of public footwashing.

 2016/7/29 13:42









 Re:

William

Quote:
Paul wrote exactly what was revealed to him and what he expected to be practiced in all the churches.



No he was only repeating what Jesus had said in order to declare that "ye do shew the Lord's death till he come".

He goes on to show that they were using the supper in the wrong way and were sick and weak because they were abusing the reason for it - to show forth the death of Christ. Christ is no longer dead - He is alive in those who are His.

 2016/7/29 13:45
StirItUp
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Joined: 2016/6/4
Posts: 949
Johannesburg, South Africa

 Re:

Forrest,

I, for one, appreciated your post and thought it very encouraging and edifying.

Keep pressing in, brother!

William


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William

 2016/7/29 13:45Profile
StirItUp
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Joined: 2016/6/4
Posts: 949
Johannesburg, South Africa

 Re:

Brenda,

This is real spiritual gymnastics that Mr Fox indulged in here.

Clearly he was not allowing plain scripture to guide him, but his own interpretation.

So important we allow scripture to be our measure, not the so called revelations of men, no matter how famous or infamous they were.

In Him,

William


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William

 2016/7/29 13:49Profile
forrests
Member



Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re: Foot Washing: Public Display?

Quote:
by Tozsu on 2016/7/29 10:42:47

Forrest, my comment was concerning the Idea of public footwashing.



That's what I understood it to be in reference to.

Have you read my initial and subsequent posts regarding it (as well as those of others who shared heart-felt and touching testimonies of having been blessing in it)?


_________________
~ Forrest

 2016/7/29 13:49Profile
StirItUp
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Joined: 2016/6/4
Posts: 949
Johannesburg, South Africa

 Re:

Brenda,

Jesus Christ is eternally the Lamb Who was slain

Even in Revelation they worship Him and remember Him as the Lamb Who was slain.

He lives in us because He died for us....why can these two truths not live side by side forever?

In Him

William


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William

 2016/7/29 13:54Profile





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