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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Does God still confirm the gospel by signs and wonders?

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 Re:

"Since thought, or "belief," originates either from the God of Truth, or the father of lies (John 8: 44), there is but one basic principle for testing the source of all doctrines, or "thoughts" and "beliefs," held by believers, or unbelievers, i.e., the test of the revealed Word of God.

All "truth" is in harmony with the only channel of revealed truth in the world--the written Word of God. All "teachings" originating from deceiving spirits--

Weaken the authority of the Scriptures;
Distort the teaching in the Scriptures;
Add to the Scriptures the thoughts of men; or
Put the Scriptures entirely aside.
The ultimate object being to hide, distort, misuse, or put aside the revelation of God concerning the Cross of Calvary, where Satan was overthrown by the God-Man, and where freedom was obtained for all his captives.

The test of all "thought" and "belief" therefore is its

Harmony with the written Scriptures in its full body of truth.
The attitude to the Cross, and sin."


(Jessie Penn-Lewis: War on the Saints)

 2016/6/29 14:00









 Re:

Yea too bad Penn-Lewis did not take her own advice with the many nonsensical "truths" she invented. And as a result she was instrumental in ruining the Welsh revival.

 2016/6/29 14:12









 Re:

Then brothers and sisters let us leave J P Lewis out of this. And let us go back to the Bible. I am appealing to the reasoning of the Cessationist. These folks say that the Bible is the only infallible rule of faith and practice. Anyone who is baptized in the Holy Spirit Will affirm this.

So I am asking my original question. Can anybody in this forum demonstrate from the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit is no longer confirming His gospel by signs and wonders? In other words since we have the complete Bible written. Can a it be shown from scriptures other than the verses out of 1st Corinthians 13 that the Holy Spirit has ceased working as they did in Acts.

I have to be honest. I read the verses out of 1 Corinthians 13 8-12. I do not see how you can take the word "perfect" and get Canon. However I'm open to instruction. Also I'm open to other verses which would establish a doctrine of cessationism.

So let's go back to the Bible.

 2016/6/29 14:27









 Re:

Blaire I think you need to elaborate on what you mean by signs and wonders. Do you mean glossolalia? And what do you mean exactly by confirming His gospel?

Also brother, cessationists as you should know, do not depend on proof texting. The fact that nearly all the NT is devoid of any mention of tongues and all of church history apart from heretical sects until the last 100 years or so have been devoid, is enough to convince cessationists.

 2016/6/29 15:02









 Re: Brenda

... And now, Lord take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond servants may speak your word with all confidence, while you extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place to the name of Your holy servant Jesus...Acts 4:29-30


... At the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were taking place among the people, and they were all with one Accord in Solomon's Portico. But none of the rest dared to associate with them, however the people held in high esteem. And all the more believers in the Lord, multitude of men and women, were constantly added to their number, to such an extent that they even carried the sick out into the streets and laid them on cots and palates, so that when Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on any one of them. Also all the people from the cities in the vicinity of Jerusalem were coming together, bringing in people who were sick or afflicted, with unclean spirits, they were all being healed...Acts 12-16.

... In Lystra a man was sitting who had no strength in his feet, lame from his mother's room, who have never walked. This man was listening to Paul as he spoke, who when he had fixed his gaze on him and had seen that he had faith to be made well, said with a loud voice, "Stand up right on your feet", and he leaped up and begin to walk...Acts 14:8-10

... God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hand of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons that were carried from his body to the sick, and the disease left them and the evil spirits went out.


Dear sister what I quoted above are the signs and wonders I am making reference to in quoting the passages out of Hebrews 2. Time will not allow me to mention the angel opening up the prison for the Apostle Peter. As well as a earthquake that opened up the prison for Silas and Paul. And I'm also sure there are other Miracles that even Luke does not record in Acts. He just mentioned that the elders were rejoicing in Jerusalem over the Miracles that we're done at the hands of Paul.

So is God still doing this today? Do the scriptures say that God stop doing this? If so, which ones?

I am only asking for scriptural reasoning that says God is no longer doing these things. Other than the verses quoted out of 1st Corinthians 13.

Hope this answers your questions.

 2016/6/29 16:12
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
Texas

 Re:

Hello Brothers and Sisters, just dropped by to see if anything has changed, it all appears to be the same, God Bless! Carry On Soldiers! :-)


_________________
Bill

 2016/6/29 18:19Profile









 Re:

Jessie Penn-Lewis never said her writings were the measuring stick. Those who say that, never read her works and are falsely misrepresenting her with their own imaginations, or other's imaginations. Maligning the servants of the Lord can be detrimental to one's health.

The single most important thing I have always liked about Jessie Penn-Lewis is the absolute importance she places on the Word of God.


From War on the Saints
This covert drawing of faith away from the bare Word of God to manifestations of God, as being more reliable, is a keenly
subtle deception of the evil one, and it is easily recognized in a believer thus deceived.

From War on the Saints
"The entire work of witnessing to Christ, and leading the Church into all truth, has been committed to the Holy Spirit. Therefore all intervention of "angels" or of audible voices from the spiritual realm purporting to be from God may be taken as counterfeits of Satan, whose supreme object is to substitute the working of his own wicked spirits in the place of God. In any case, it is best and safest in these days of peril to keep in the path of faith and reliance upon the Holy Spirit of God working through the WORD OF GOD."


From War on the Saints
"Every believer must test all teachers today for himself, by the WORD OF GOD and by their attitude to the atoning cross of Christ and other fundamental truths of the gospel, and not be misled into testing "teaching” by the character of the teacher. Good men can be deceived, and Satan needs good men to float his lies under the guise of truth."

From War on the Saints
"The safe path for believers at the close of the age is one of TENACIOUS FAITH IN THE WRITTEN WORD AS THE SWORD OF THE SPIRIT, to cut the way through all the interferences and tactics of the forces of darkness, to the end."

From War on the Saints
Supernatural visions and manifestations are a fruitful source of revenue to deceiving spirits, especially when the believer makes reference to and relies upon these experiences more than the WORD OF GOD; for the aim of the wicked spirit is to displace the WORD OF GOD as the rock-ground of one's life. Oh, the Scriptures may be referred to and quoted, but often only as a warrant for the experiences, and to strengthen faith—not in God, but in His apparent manifestations. This covert drawing of faith away from THE BARE WORD OF GOD to manifestations of God, as being more reliable, is a keenly subtle deception of the evil one, and it is easily recognized in a believer thus deceived.



From The Conquest of Canaan
"One way Israel could be ensnared was by "inquiring.” Oh, children of God, keep to your Bibles! KEEPT TO THE SIMPLE TRUTHS OF GOD'S WORD! One startling danger upon us today is HOW LITTLE IS KNOW OF THE WORD OF GOD by Christians. They can give strings of favorite texts, but as to telling you intelligently the fundamental, straightforward truth of God, they are dependent upon others for that. Those who take God's Book and read it throughout—Gospels and Epistles—until it is incorporated in their very innermost life, will quickly realize when what they hear is out of line with that Word, and they will not be drawn away from the truth as it is in Jesus."

From The Conquest of Canaan
"Does it make you more loyal to God or to the worship of "other gods"—even in sense of placing your "experience" as of greater value THAN THE BARE WORD OF GOD? In this supernatural warfare, take heed, and recognize that signs and wonders are no proof that a "prophet" or a "teacher" is of God; nor does the fact of their predictions being fulfilled bear witness that they are of God."

From The Conquest of Canaan
"He is commanded to be strong, with his only equipment the WORD OF GOD and implicit obedience to it! Such was Christ's equipment. The Lord said He lived by the WORD OF GOD, and that His meat was to do the will of His Father. All that Joshua had to do was to take the directions given to him by God and to lead under His command."

From The Conquest of Canaan
"The first condition of equipment for mastery was implicit obedience to the WORD OF GOD. This again shows you the importance of feeding on God's Word and seeking to have it so dwelling in you that your spirit is made strong. "Keep all of the commandment . . . that ye may be strong, and go in to possess the land.” Implicit obedience to the full command of God—that they were absolutely not to tamper with nor touch the things forbidden by God. To see this more clearly we will again go to the story of Jericho."

From The Conquest of Canaan
"If there is anything about your life that is not in accordance with the righteousness of the Holy One, then let Him deal with it—for His righteousness is highest love. In this warfare you must have nothing to do with what to you is wrong. Do not ask other people what is right or wrong, but ask God to make you know what is right or wrong for you; and THEN BE TRUE. Do not give what "so-and-so says" as a reason for any course you take, but do what God has shown you is right, up to the fullest knowledge of your light obtained from the WORD OF GOD;"

From The Conquest of Canaan
"If any of you believe that Satan will be redeemed, you are believing a lie that has come to you from deceiving spirits—a lie from the pit. The many doctrines that are abroad today must be brought to the standard of the WORD OF GOD."

The Conquest of Canaan - Warfare and Victory in the Christian Life http://classicbiblestudyguide.com/English/ConquestOfCanaan.pdf



War on the Saints
http://classicbiblestudyguide.com/English/WarOnTheSaints.pdf

From War on the Saints
"Henceforth it is also war by Satan upon the womanhood of the world, in malignant revenge for the verdict of the garden. Yes, war by the trampling down of women in all lands where the deceiver reigns. And war upon women in Christian lands too, by the continuance of his Eden method of misinterpreting the WORD OF GOD: insinuating into men's minds throughout all succeeding ages that God pronounced a "curse" upon the woman, when in truth she was pardoned and blessed; and instigating fallen men to personally carry out this supposed curse, though in truth it was a CURSE UPON THE DECEIVER and not upon the deceived one (Gen. 3:14).
"I will put enmity between thee and the woman," said God, as well as between "thy seed and her seed," and this vindictive enmity of the hierarchy of evil toward women, and especially believers, has not lessened in its intensity from that day."

From War on the Saints
"The man is deceived if he is a hearer but not a doer of the WORD OF GOD (Jas. 1:22)."

From War on the Saints
"A wide net is thus made for the unwary or the untaught in the principles of Scripture exegesis, and many a life is sidetracked and troubled by this false use of the WORD OF GOD"

From War on the Saints
"Since thought, or "belief," originates either from the God of Truth or the father of lies (John 8:44), there is but one basic principle for testing the source of all doctrines and philosophical beliefs held by believers or unbelievers, ie., the test of THE REVEALED WORD OF GOD. All genuine "truth" is in harmony with the only channel of revealed truth in the world—the written Word of God."

From War on the Saints
"The safe path for believers at the close of the age is one of TENACIOUS FAITH IN THE WRITTEN WORD AS THE SWORD OF THE SPIRIT, to cut the way through all the interferences and tactics of the forces of darkness, to the end."

 2016/6/29 19:17









 Re: Some of Jessi-Penn Lewis’s heresies

Some of Jessi-Penn Lewis’s heresies:

Penn-Lewis learned from Guyon the alleged truth of Quietism, “an effortless spiritual life” that is “stripped of [even the] vestiges of self”[562] by passing beyond “effort or feeling or even faith”[563] to mystical union with the Divine, “the Christ-life,”[564] where “your own personality as a separate identity [is] merged in Him,”[565] and “God is—we are not.”

she wrote, “I have never had to fight a battle of ‘surrender of will’ from that time,”[555] having entered by Spirit baptism into a realm of spiritual experience higher than any promised in the Bible or experienced by men like the Apostle Paul in their lifetime (Galatians 5:17; Romans 7:14-25).[556]

Thus, the material for her books came from the spirit world, visions, dreams, voices, experiences with heavy breathing, groaning, parts of her body feeling corrupt and loathsome, and so on. Her teaching on “those deeper aspects of Romans 6 and Colossians 2”[578] were “revealed” to her in such a manner—rather than from the study of the Bible, which teaches, on the contrary, that while Christ endured the punishment of the sinful world in a vicarious way, sin being imputed to Him, He nevertheless was never personally sinful. Thus, by her visions and revelations, she gained that “deep knowledge of the Cross” which contradicts what Scripture teaches about the work of Christ on the cross. Writing to F. B. Meyer, she said, “I have been given by the Divine Spirit the interpretation of the Cross to the Christian.”[579] She “was specially chosen . . . and equipped with deep spiritual truths in these last days for the Church, truths that no one else held,”[580] since they are not in the Bible. Furthermore, the spirits that gave her revelations not only miraculously produced The Message of the Cross, “every bit of it,”


Written by by G. Richard Fisher, pastor.

"From the perspective of Penn- Lewis, there was hardly a part of the body safe from pestiferous spirits. Likewise in her view, demons could jump into and/or onto almost any part of the body at any time and possess believers. No wonder most of the circulated editions of War on the Saints are abridged and cleaned up with the extreme nonsense edited out. The book belongs in the ‘‘scary sci- ence fiction’’ section of your local Barnes and Noble bookstore alongside the X Files.

Penn-Lewis put forth the impossible premise that demons could sin through the believer, causing the be- liever to be confused and think they were sinning when they were not. She called it counterfeit sin:
‘‘Evil spirits can also counterfeit sin, by causing some apparent manifestation of the evil nature in the life, and matured believers should know whether such a manifestation really is sin from the old nature, or a manifestation from evil spirits. The purpose in the latter case is to get the believer to take what comes from them, as from himself, for what- ever is accepted from evil spirits gives them entry and power.”

"It is claimed that Mrs Penn Lewis used Evan’s name to propagate her own ministry and message. She supposedly convinced him he was deceived by evil spirits and, over the next few years co-authorised with Evan “War on the Saints”, which was published in 1913.

This book clearly delineates the confusion she had drawn Evan into. It left its readers totally wary of any spiritual phenomena of any kind or degree. Rather than giving clear guidelines regarding discerning satanic powers, it brought into question anything that may be considered, or that might be described, as Holy Spirit activity.

Within a year of its publication, Evan Roberts denounced it, telling friends that it had been a failed weapon which had confused and divided the Lord’s people."

 2016/6/29 20:37









 Re:

She is consistent in all of her books regarding the imperative reliance of the Believer on the Word of God and always pointing the Believer to the Word of God.

Read for yourselves and by all means take into into account what everyone says but draw your own conclusions based on your own inquiries of the Lord for light and truth regarding what you read. He will never fail you.


From the Cross of Calvary:
http://classicbiblestudyguide.com/English/TheCrossOfCalvary.pdf

"You must quickly take, and hide behind, the "shield of faith" from the "fiery darts of the evil one," and especially keep the "helmet of salvation" upon your head, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, your "thoughts" should be corrupted from the "simplicity that is in Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:3). Above all, for defense and
attack, you will ceaselessly need the sword of the Spirit, the WORD OF GOD, which is living and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword."

"Faith on the part of the redeemed one is again mentioned here. Faith is nonexistent apart from its object. Faith is simply reliance upon the WORD OF GOD, with the character of God at the back of His word! "Faith cometh by hearing" and is awakened in the receptive heart by the Spirit of God Himself as He speaks the word of God to the soul."

It is the work of the Holy Spirit to wield the sword of the Spirit, the WORD OF GOD, and divide within us all that is soulish (Hebrews 4:12) from all that is true spirit. As the Word dwells in us richly and the dividing takes place, it is for us to hate the soul-life revealed and "lose" it by yielding it to the cross.



From "Life out of Death"
http://classicbiblestudyguide.com/English/LifeOutOfDeath.pdf

"As the Spirit of God reveals more fully the life of one's selfhood, and as the sacrificial knife (Hebrews 4:12, so the thought is in the Greek) of the living WORD OF GOD pierces to the dividing of soul and spirit, we must turn to the finished work of our Redeemer and thankfully recognize our place with Him upon His cross. Thus shall the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus make us free, and we shall be joined to Another, even to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit unto God."

"Obedience up to light is one of the main conditions of "abiding," to which maybe added faith in the faithfulness of God to maintain the soul in Him, and, as well, the Word of God, dwelling richly in the heart, and the continuous application by the Holy Spirit of the blood of sprinkling (1 Peter 1:2)."

"We need to be very careful In the language we use, that it is entirely in accordance with the WORD OF GOD. The word "eradication" is not in the Bible, and if by it is meant the complete and absolute destruction of the "old creation," so that the man is sinless, and cannot sin, then it is indeed contrary to the Word of God. Avoid unscriptural language."

"Keep to the WORD OF GOD, and do not be tossed about by every wind of doctrine; and take everything you hear to the Lord, and like a little child trust Him to teach you what He means by these things in His Own Word."

"That is walking "in newness of life." It does not mean a constant struggle to hold this attitude, but as you rest upon the WORD OF GOD, believing that what He says of you in Romans 6 is true, you enter into the "rest of faith" concerning it, and the attitude
becomes a habit of life."

 2016/6/29 22:14
dfella
Member



Joined: 2010/7/9
Posts: 295
Canton, Michigan

 Re:

Maybe I should start another thread and do not want to disrespect Brother Blaine’s OP. However there is something that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to me and that is the topic of the cessasionist.

The definition of cessation is the fact or process of ending or being brought to an end.

First of all how do you separate the Godhead? How is it that the cessationist can say that the gifts, leading, guidance, power, signs, and wonders that are attributed to the Holy Spirit have come to an end?

Then I read people in this thread referring to cessationists as Christians, brothers, and Godly while these cessationists deny the very working of the Holy Spirit and pass the real manifestations of the Holy Spirit off as counterfeit. Why is it that the Holy Spirit always seems to bear the brunt of this false doctrine? Do you really believe you can deny, discount, and explain away the Holy Spirits function within the body of Christ and not at the same time deny the Father and the Son?

You cannot separate the Godhead, if you deny One you deny All!

Are there counterfeits? Absolutely! But everyone always talks about the Holy Spirits gifts and manifestations as the only thing the devil counterfeits, its always the Holy Spirit this the Holy Spirit that. Do you realize that Jesus and the Father also have counterfeits and not just the Holy Spirit?

Nobody every talks about the false Gods and false jesus’ which the bible and Jesus Himself said would come, every cessationist wants to target the Holy Spirit and Him only.

You cannot separate the Godhead, you kill One, you kill All, you deny One you deny All, you slander One, you slander All, but most seriously if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit there is no forgiveness.

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, His gifts, His workings are the very denial that He is the One doing them and attributing the true signs and wonders to the devil.

I’ve said it before and will say it again. Do not treat the Holy Spirit as some sort of option on a menu, He is not an option but a necessity. It is true that there are counterfeit gifts, manifestations, tongues, and that there are counterfeit manifestations of the Godhead, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. But I will warn you that this is not an excuse to condemn the true because of the false.

People are asking those of us who have received this most blessed and promised gift if we have tested what we have as the true thing. My question back is have you ever tested the manifestations, signs, and wonders of the Holy Spirit to see if they are real or not? In your whole Christian walk have you ever tested and bore witness that you know that you know that the Holy Spirit has done a miracle, healing, deliverance, spoke a word of prophecy, word of wisdom, word of knowledge?? Or have you come to the conclusion of the cessationist?

I just do not see how one can be a cessaionist and a believer at the same time. The gifts of the Spirit operate by faith, if you deny the gifts, where is your faith? Without faith it is impossible to please God. The bible says when the Lord returns will He find faith in the earth?

I have many friends who are genuinely saved and I bear witness with their salvation and have wonderful prayer, fellowship, praise, worship,etc.. that are not baptized in the Holy Spirit yet. I do not think any less of them whatsoever, I do not look down on them because I myself was truly saved for 9 years before I received the baptism. But when I get around professing Christians who want to deny, and explain away, the need of the Holy Spirit in their life or the lives of others it strikes a nerve and it is offensive. Not for me but for God.

There are many well known teachers/preachers who attack the Holy Spirit and His gifts relentlessly and that is nothing less than a spirit of antichrist. Am I being dogmatic? Yep. Am I being unteachable in this area? Yep.

Before you go and condemn me for being such, let me ask you a question. Are you dogmatic about Jesus, His virgin birth, His death, His burial, His resurrection, His return….? You better be.

So don’t go saying that it’s okay to be dogmatic about one Manifestation of the Godhead over another.

You cannot have Jesus without the Word and you cannot have the Word without Jesus, they go hand in hand.

Likewise you cannot have the Holy Spirit without the gifts and you cannot have the gifts without the Holy Spirit.

Sorry Blaine, I did not mean to go on a rant, I would be happy to move this to its own thread if you wish, but I am not going to debate the issue. This is meant for those whom have ears to hear not for debate, arguing over, or denying.

If someone however can solve the oxymoron of describing an individual as being a cessationist and Christian at the same time I would be willing to be humored.




_________________
David Fella

 2016/6/29 23:15Profile





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