Thank you dear Blaire, but do you know that the Baptism of the Spirit can be and is counterfeited? Were you taught that in your church and encouraged to test it?

Have you read this, which was written at the time when it had become apparent that a pseudo baptism was stopping the revival amongst people who believed that a baptism of the Spirit is a authentic second blessing?

"Pastor Ernst Lohmann published in Germany and printed in the OVERCOMER of 1910 wrote:

"They (heathen systems such as theosophy, new Buddhism, and spiritism) also produce revatations and prophesies, speaking and singing with tongues, healing and miracles..It is of importance that we should study this subject to find an answer to to the question as to how these phenomena are brought about.

The numerous and exact investigations which are being made in our day into the subject are giving increasing insight into this dark realm. Powers and possibilities have been discovered in man which until now have been totally unsuspected.

They are designated "subliminal powers" and we speak of "subconsciousness". What physical occurances accompany these phenomena?

The lower-nerve centres (the ganglionic system or the vegetative nerves as they are called) which have their chief seat in the region around the pit of the stomach, are excited to increase activity.At the same time , the central region of the higher nervous system (the cerebral system) which in the normal state of affairs is the medium of the conscious perception and action becomes paralysed.
There is a reversal of the order of nature. The lower nerves take over the duty of the higher ones (a sort of compensation).

This state of things comes to pass negatively by the higher organ, loosing its natural supremacy under pressure of illness or artificially by hypnotism, auto suggestion etc and possitively by the lower nerves being in some way excited ARTIFICIALLY to increase activity, whereby they get the upper hand.

These nerves then display abilities which our ordinary organs do not posseee, they receive impressions from the realm usually closed to us, such as clairvoyance,prophesy and speaking in tongues.

When in this state of somnambulism, the inner sense heightened by its activity perceives outward things as clearly and more so than when awake, and this takes place according to the unanimous declaration of all somnambulists through the pit of the stomach ie through the nerves which have their seat in this region....And it is from this part that the nerves are set in action which move the organs of speech (in the speaking of tongues)

Those in whom the sub-consciousness becomes active in this manner described above feel as it were an ELECTRIC STREAM passing through the body which is an exciting of the nerves which have their central seat at the pit of the stomach. It is from thence that the jaws are moved in the speaking in tongues.

One of the leaders of the Pentecostal Movement in describing the so called Baptism of the Spirit in his body made use of the singular comparison that it seemed to him as though there were in his body an inverted bottle. This simile was incomprehensible to me until I heard an almost identical one from a Mohammedan sooth sayer, Tewekkul Beg, describing how he would get into AN ECSTATIC STATE.

He says "After my eyes were bound, Isaw something in my inner being resembling a fallen tumbler......When this object was placed upright, a feeling of unlimitless bliss filled my being."

By exciting the lower nervous system, a feeling of intense rapture is regularly produced.

It is evident that in these phenomena we have the exact opposite of what the Scriptures understand by the communion of the Spirit. When the Spirit of God takes possession of the spirit of man HE IS BROUGHT BACK TO A NORMAL CONDITION. The spirit acquires the full authority given to it by the Creator over the powers of the soul and through the soul, the body. The concious persona; life is once more completely under authority of the spirit".

WAR ON THE SAINTS. JPL.

Dear sister much of my time was spent in Calvinism. In a time in my life I was taught to defend the Five Points of Calvinism. At one time in my life. TULIP was more important then the Word of God. Owning commentaries and reference works was more important in my life than owning a Bible. The test of my spirituality was having the latest set of commentaries. I delighted in having the best reference library in comparison to my other brothers. This was the background that I spent 15 years in.

I share this because the test of my being baptized in the Spirit was seeking Christ Himself and thirsting for His word. And the thirsting is basically for Jesus Himself.

Sister I do believe that God he is confirming his gospel by signs and wonders. I see this in the people I pray for you in the persecuted church. I am not seeking the signs and wonders. But I am seeking Jesus Himself.

If I may paraphrase the words of brother Fernando Ortega in that beautiful worship song Give Me Jesus. I would say you may have all of this theology. But give me Jesus.

Dear sister hope this makes sense.

By the way you may want to check what I posted on the devotional thread I maintain, From the Shadow of His Cross. I think it conveys more my thoughts regarding the Word of God. Because I pray it reflects those I pray for. That is the brothers and sisters in the persecuted church.

Brother Blaine

Dear brother, I have no doubts about your devotion to Christ and His word.

I asked whether you have actually tested the baptism you received, which has nothing to do with however much we seek more of Him. I will leave it. We are told to test the spirits, and this above all needs to be in obedience to that instruction. I have tested mine and it is in line with the testimony of the great holiness movement and not Pentecostalism which denies the holiness resulting from it.

Dear sister to the best of my ability I have tested it. I believe the baptism I received to be authentic.

But in the world we live in we should always be testing the spirits to see whether they are from God. Always examining uur faith to see if Christ is in us.

And to always seek His filling on a daily basis. My sister I hope this answers your question. I have tried to answer it as honestly as I know how.

Always appreciate your heart dear sister.

Brother Blaine

Thank you brother and l appreciate yours too and your graciousness.

I agree that we should always be testing the spirits but if we do not know the differences between the authentic post conversion baptism and the counterfeit one we will not know how to test it. Knowledge is all here not feelings or 'signs'. What do you understand about the counterfeit one and where is it found?

My sister I am at work now doing a seminar. But let me reflect on your question. Will respond when I get off work. I think I'm about 6 hours behind you.

Brother Blaine

Hi all,

Sister Brenda, I am sorry if I misunderstand however you seem to be interrogating the genuineness of what many of us have experienced and believe to be a baptism in the Holy Spirit with the outward evidence of speaking in other tongues (which many baptist brethren have derogaratively called "gibberish" on social media posts, but then they do not practice the gift of prophecy either)
I will not go so far as to say that every Spirit baptized believer MUST speak with other tongues however this was my experience and I stand by it. I have found, when I exercise this privilege, that I am truly strengthened in the inner man and much more aware of spiritual realities and open to be used by the Holy Spirit in His other gifts as He wills. This has never led me away from the written revealed Word and has always made me appreciate the Lord and His goodness even more.
In fact, I recall a recent experience where a brother was filled with the Spirit and began to speak with other tongues in a Home Group situation where no one laid hands on him or manipulated him in any way. Basically a brother read a portion of scripture from Ephesians regarding the Lordship of Christ, with power and anointing and this brother spontaneously began to pray in other tongues as the Spirit gave him utterance
Paul stated: " I speak with tongues more than you all" and wished they "all spake with tongues"
In your previous posts you quoted a theologian describing counterfeit type experiences. Should this really be where we as believers focus our attention and energy, or rather the genuine?
Spiritual realities can certainly not be proven or disproven by scientific experiments and the like.
The scripture says that "how much more will your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him" I believe we do not have to be afraid of manifestations of the Spirit if we have sincerely asked and received the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
There is more than enough evidence to this in the book of Acts and throughout church history.
In conclusion: let us therefore hold fast the genuine and the edifying, while exposing and denying the excesses and the fleshly.
God bless,

_________________
William

Brother

It is not an interrogation, I just want to give a few issues for the brethren to think over. From my own experience in attending charismatic churches, I am concerned that there is no mention that a counterfeit baptism is a possibility and that it should be tested. It was the subject of the book we have been discussing by Jessie Penn-Lewis and Even Roberts.

Obvoiously in the case of a counterfeit there will be possitive effects, as Satan needs to be convincing when he fools us.

I have found many times that there is the belief that if one is sincere in seeking to know Christ in a deeper way and asks for the Holy Spirit, then they will not be deceived but that is not what scripture says.

It is full of warnings about being deceived many many times. If we are expecting a baptism like others who have been deceived, then that will be the one we get. If we expect to be delivered from the power of sin, then it is the one we will receive.

Indeed it can be proven if what we have experienced is the genuine article and the scripture tells is it is by the fruit of it. Not nice feelings or signs and wonders, but just basic absolute transformation after the baptism, like we find in the disciples and a holy life.

The fruit of the Spirit is laid out and this is what we should see in ourselves, all of it as they are not seperate fruits but fruit of the Spirit.

In the 19th century, this was a huge issue and Pentecostals did not accept that Baptism means a holy life, that is to say, victory over sin.

I do believe that God will give the gift of tongues when needed in that situation unless like Paul we already are able to speak in verious languages.

The books by Jess-Penn Lewis should absolutley NOT be used as a measuring stick for what is genuine or false regarding the works of the Holy Spirit. Her teachings are highly suspect, self opinionated ramblings of her own mind and with negligible biblical basis when examined in light of the scriptures.

Stick with the bible

///by Notdarkyet

The books by Jess-Penn Lewis should absolutley NOT be used as a measuring stick for what is genuine or false regarding the works of the Holy Spirit. Her teachings are highly suspect, self opinionated ramblings of her own mind and with negligible biblical basis when examined in light of the scriptures.

Stick with the bible///

Amen brother, stick with the Bible!!

_________________
Lisa