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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1776



By the way, neither have I, so I can appreciate those parts of what you share that are sound. Please be careful about statements like this that are not fully developed.

Brother Alan Martin, what do you believe deception is? Or lie of Satan is? Do you think it will be completely against scripture or will it have some lie silently mixed with sound truth?

When we believe there is a small drop of poison in a very taste dish, we are not going to eat it. Same is a doctrine that has a small lie mixed with Sound scripture. Ignore it completely as a lie of Devil, instead of pick and choose using Scripture as light.

Many thing that Tuc writes here have some sound truth but in them are lies mixed that are clearly against scripture. There will be some addition to God's promises, which to an untrained mind will appear awesome. But the scripture says that any addition to God's word deserves to be cursed.


 2016/5/17 16:41Profile

Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 693


Dear Sree,

I understand your concern, but "error" can accomplish through sincere brothers as much as "lies" can do through insincere.

I share your concerns about errors that involve expressions that undermine believers' responsibility to consciously obey and abide. However, I count TUC a brother and seek to build upon what we agree on while we discuss the areas we understand differently.


Alan and Dina Martin

 2016/5/17 16:55Profile


Brother Sree

That's good stuff you are proclaiming. The devil is in the details.

 2016/5/17 17:14

Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5639


I have always felt something "off" about what brother tuc is proclaiming. Perhaps not a red flag- but perhaps an orange one.

It's very hard to exactly state what the problem is. Sree has hit on at least part of it it.

It seems very pipe-dreamy to me. There are too many "dos and donts" in the NT to be ignored.

The bible writers clearly seem the idea that we have the power to obey or not obey. No one said it was easy- that's why there is much talk of suffering and cross bearing.


 2016/5/17 18:42Profile

Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936

 Re: MAK

RE: ///Here is an opportunity to test your own words with the specific grammar of the text we believe is inspired.
Please look again at the Greek grammar used for "his own lusts" and you will see that James chose this very specific wording.///

I am not convinced that the James verse quoted negates Tucs logic.

RE: ".. we will suffer being tempted, just like Jesus.."

How was Jesus tempted ?

edit : remove quote to ask a question

 2016/5/17 22:40Profile

Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 536


When I first came into contact with the teaching that tuc has been sharing, I also was wary of it and thought it was too passive. It is the default setting of all humans to put the emphasis on “doing, action”. In fact, most people have a hard time believing in God’s free grace apart from our earning it. They feel much more comfortable in doing something good to point at for God to have a reason to be good to us. And even good Christians who do believe in the unconditional love of God that provides salvation often believe that it is their good works that causes God to continue to enjoy them.

Don’t worry, I’m not going to promote greasy grace that says it doesn’t matter how you live before God. But God is more interested in your motive for doing what you do than the doing itself. The Pharisees did some good works that seemed very commendable by the entire religious community. But they were trying to obtain “self-righteousness” almost as a way to keep God at bay and make themselves irreproachable which naturally led to pride and judgementalism of others who couldn’t measure up. The law of Moses was intended to cause Israel to despair of their sin and throw themselves at God’s mercy with extreme humility. The Pharisees, because they looked at the law as external acts apart from heart values and inner motives went in the exact opposite direction. Jesus’ harshest criticism was directed at the Pharisees and Scribes because of their lack of humility mostly.

What helped me see the truth of what I call the “inner life” or “surrendered life” is found in the difference between willfulness and willingness. The young Christian who has a besetting sin that is defeating him day-in and day-out vows to try harder and make a more dedicated resolution to not fail next time. This is willfulness that is not centered on the spirit but is the “arm of the flesh”, religious flesh to be sure but still “flesh”. This is precisely what you read about in Romans 7. Only after repeated failures even when trying with the utmost determination can God break such a soul of such willfulness. Think about it, if you could live a life totally pleasing to God just by sheer human willpower, you wouldn’t need the Holy Spirit.

But God gives grace to the humble soul who after painful failures turns to God with in meekness with a hungry heart for a righteousness that originates from one’s inner man. This is where godly willingness comes in. And the willingness I am talking about also carries with it a hunger, thirst and enthusiasm that the God who indwells me is able to transform me starting from the inside and working itself out into demonstrable works. And don’t misunderstand me here, I am not saying to wait for a “feeling” to overwhelm you. But it is critical to bow you head and in humility say to God, “I cannot live the Christian life but God, I am looking to you in faith to work through me your imparted righteousness as I willingly surrender myself to you.” And then when a testing, trial or temptation comes you way, say to God, “Lord, you are my patience, Lord, you are my purity, etc. In other words, “Lord you indwell me to be that holy resource within that will meet the challenge.” And if you are sincerely willing to allow God to work and you truly believe, you will see results. Major Ian Thomas and others have written extensively on depending on the Christ life within.

We as Christians do have a responsibility to be on the lookout for the stirrings of the flesh and reckon ourselves dead to it. And it is critical to see yourself in Christ as a saint (in the process of still having the mind renewed) instead of a wretched sinner by nature (even though it is true we still do sin). Putting on the new man and putting off the old man is very much our responsibility. Notice in Galatians Paul says, “Walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.” I think too many Christians put the heavy emphasis on suppressing the flesh by means of fleshly effort and never get anywhere with that. I have found that when I see my identity as a new creature (in my spirit man, the real me) which is holy and wants to please God, the struggle with the flesh is less problematic. A person will only consistently behave in a manner that corresponds to how he sees himself to be. It is not impossible to act out of character to the way you see yourself but it is the exception and not the rule.

There is a divine balance in just how much of the Christian walk is God’s part and how much of it is our part. God is a work in you both to will and to do His good pleasure. We need to cultivate an inner life with the indwelling Lord so that we remain humble, knowing that apart from Him we can do nothing (good). Also, we need to be hungry and thirsty for righteousness that originates from within from the Spirit for He satisfies and fills the hungry and thirsty with good things. And surely we need to believe in the power of the indwelling Christ to come to our aid as we look to Him for the power to live the Christian life knowing that we can’t (and are never expected to) do it all by ourselves. The Christian life is not a self-improvement program.

So I totally get how some of you who read these teachings about the “inner life”, “exchanged life”, etc. are thinking it is so passive because the primary focus is not on works per se but on the Christ life within that must be made room for and allowed to be expressed. It is not difficult but it is very nuanced. Almost all of Christ’s spiritual teaching was done with parables because it cannot be spoken about directly because the mind cannot comprehend the spirit directly. It is far easier to try to explain the Christian life as all about do’s and don’ts and willfulness because anything else seems like “do nothing-ism.” But if you don’t first focus on the origin of the what and the why you do what you do, you are pursuing self-righteousness and will probably get many pats on the back by your church brethren because it looks so good on the outside. Focus on getting the inside of the cup right and the outside (works) will take care of itself.

 2016/5/18 1:29Profile

Joined: 2016/3/14
Posts: 162
Branson, MO


Amen TrueWitness! If you were to write a book I would buy it and read it.


 2016/5/18 7:19Profile

 Alan -Decption can have a role in our sinning

You wrote

"The question then is why have your own thoughts led you to an expression that is not supported by the New Testament. I appreciate your earnest desire to lead believers to experience Union Life in Christ."

Does James 1:14-15 negate the teaching that a person can be deceived into sinning?

Eve was beguiled - deceived by the serpent.

2 Cor. 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

1 Tim. 2:14, "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

Paul was deceived by sin taking occasion by the commandant

Rom 7:11, "For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me."

Before we embraced Christ many of us were deceived.

Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

So it it is impossible to rule deception completely out as a possibility for sin as the New Testament states.

 2016/5/18 7:34


Brothers I went back and read Tuc's OP and see nothing that raises a red flag. Those of you who accuse the brother of promoting do nothing Christianity need to be more specific. Because frankly I don't see that in Tuk's piece. If anything I see more of an encouragement to be holy because the Holy One is living in the us.

The issue seems to boil down to "being" verses "doing". That is the doing on our part which will be the arm of the flesh. Rather as opposed to the being in Christ which is the work of "Him" in us.

Consider 1 Cor.1:30

... But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that just as it is written, "Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord."...

God has already done the work in bringing us to Christ. He has done the work by causing us to be born again. He has already done the work by giving us His Holy Spirit by which we grow and walk out His life in us.

But there is a choice on our part. And that is the choice to walk out the life of the Spirit in our lives. We are not robots. God has redeemed our wills to choose they either walk in the flesh or to walk in the spirit. This is what the last part of Galatians 5 brings to our attention. There is a choice. The choice of the flesh or the choice of the Spirit.

Brothers for right now simply my thoughts.

 2016/5/18 7:37

Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5639


Bear I agree with you. What I disagree with is the idea that we are powerless to avoid sinning. I see two sources of power to live a holy life- primarily the power of the HS in us, and MY power to choose to obey or quench the Holy Spirit.

I don't think we can simply lay back and float down the lazy river of grace. Sometimes we have to paddle a bit to avoid rocks and waterfalls.


 2016/5/18 7:55Profile

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