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dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1634
Alabama

 Re:

I have read some genuine, kind and well stated arguments for understanding Jesus in Matthew 24 "you will see the Son of man ... coming in clouds" etc as being fulfilled in 70AD. I do know something of the extent of Jerusalem's destruction from reading.


But, here is where I just can't put it together. The brothers who understand that Jesus "came in the clouds" in judgment on Jerusalem in 70AD and the brothers who say Jesus will "come" in clouds via a secret rapture suffer from the same gap: Jesus is not "in" the clouds in AD 70 and He is not "coming" in the clouds in a secret rapture.

I get the argument that God uses clouds metaphorically for delivering His judgment, and I admit that Jesus' statement in Matthew 24 could sensibly have been understood by the Pharisees as His claim to being the God of judgment because of passages in the OT that describe judgment that way.

But, as I read the passage, Jesus is not speaking metaphorically. You know, as a lawyer in a state where common law marriage still exists, I have often joked that common law marriage is like ex post facto marriage -- you don't have it until you prove it after it is over and you look back and say, "Yep, that was a marriage." We would agree that it seems absurd. Well, reading Jesus metaphorically in about coming in clouds and calling the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 *that* strikes me the same way. It seems absurd. But, absurd common law marriage is still marriage under some states' laws. So, I don't scoff at the interpretation as much as I just don't accept it. Which is REALLY like common law marriage because most states don't accept IT. :)

That paragraph was totally unhelpful to y'all I am sure. :)

Now, as to whether "coming" equals stopping short in a secret rapture, I will leave for another time. I have been told that as a post tribber I believe we will do a U turn in the resurrection, but the pre-trib understanding has Jesus doing one. All I can say is that if I tell my wife I am coming home for dinner and I stop at a Jack's hamburger joint on the way and have a meal there, it would be hard for me to call that "coming home for dinner". There would be a little tribulation then of you get my drift. I can see the look on her face if I said, "Well, I came ON HOME afterward, so I am home."


_________________
Tim

 2016/4/27 11:34Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5621
NC, USA

 Re:

Tim-

I am not sure what you mean by secret rapture.

My understanding is that when Jesus returns the church will be raptured while the universe is recreated and then back down to the new earth we will come. Not sure where the secret part comes in

I certainly don't personally believe there was a rapture in 70 AD.


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Todd

 2016/4/27 12:48Profile









 Re: Was Done or Was Done and Yet Will Be

Brothers trying to keep it simple. I do see Matthew 24 as having reference to Jerusalem and the temple being destroyed in 70 A.D. But I also see a future fulfillment that is yet to come. Probably the signs being played out today.

I have no issue in accepting that some of the signs of Matthew 24 were fulfilled in 70 A.D. But when I see that some of the signs are yet to be fullfilled and point to the ultimate return of Jesus. The 70 A.D. folks go into a tizzy.

Why can't the 70 A.D. folks accept that the language of Matthew 24 is double. Some fulfilled on 70 A.D. Some yet to be fullfilled.

Bro Blaine

 2016/4/27 12:52









 Re:

Brothers I'm doing my best to can keep my posts conciliatory and respectful. This is why I refer to the 70 AD folks as believing Matthew 24 was fulfilled in 70 AD. Without using inflammatory theological labels.

Sitting here at Starbucks smiling. Just had a good dental check. Look forum. No cavities. :-)

Also enjoyed a nice Italian sandwich at Starbucks. And a cup of their hone brew. Ooops. That might start another controversy. That's coffee. Not beer.:)

Bearmaster. Almost typed Beermaster. :)

 2016/4/27 12:58
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1634
Alabama

 Re:

Todd, what is meant by the phrase secret rapture is the idea that Jesus will sort of sneak into the clouds and snatch the church away. It is a phrase that is used primarily by rapture critics, although I used it simply to point up what I see as hey gap when it comes to the rapture and Matthew 24


_________________
Tim

 2016/4/27 13:18Profile









 Re:

I know there have been threats which have discussed the "secret rapture". I simply don't see any scriptural support for the "secret Rapture" in the New Testament.

The proponents of the "secret Rapture" are arguing for two resurrections.

Bro Blaine

 2016/4/27 13:34
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5621
NC, USA

 Re:

Bear-

I can concede that the OD may have a part that is yet to be fulfilled. That doesn't bother me at all.

But, because Jesus' language is apocalyptic/prophetic in nature, it does not necessitate a fulfillment beyond 70AD.

In other words, it may have a future fulfillment and it may not. How's that for taking a stand?


_________________
Todd

 2016/4/27 13:54Profile









 Re: Todd

Bro not trying to be funny. But that's about like asking your wife. Honey are you pregnant? And she says kinda sorta. :-)

I was only making making a little fun at your question when you said how is that for taking a stand?

Brother Blaine


 2016/4/27 19:43









 Re: Apocalyptic Language???

Brothers respectfully when you read Matthew 24 starting at verse 4 and down to verse 14. I hardly consider that apocalyptic language. Jesus seems to be speaking clearly about false Christ, wars and rumors of wars, plagues, earthquakes, persecution, martyrdom, etc. Jesus is speaking clearly about signs that will precede His coming.

These signs clearly indicate that there is yet a future fulfillment to occur in Matthew 24.

My thoughts.

Brother Blaine

 2016/4/27 19:50
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5621
NC, USA

 Re:

I agree Bear. The apocalyptic part starts when he talks about the clouds.


_________________
Todd

 2016/4/27 19:58Profile





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