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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : Indiana State Trooper Fired.......

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 Re:

I hope noone here is judging this trooper...I didn't get any impression that anyone was. I think sharing our faith to our co-workers goes without saying, we should do it as the Lord leads us and I bet this trooper did that all the time and never had any issues. The issue comes when we proselytize the customers or in this case, the people who are under the authority of us as public servants.

 2016/4/9 22:48
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Yes Bear I certainly am not judging the trooper. If he was doing what God told him to do he is to be admired.

Let's pray God honors his obedience by placing him in a better job.


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Todd

 2016/4/9 23:17Profile
passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 742


 Re:

What was the official bill of his indictment, what is the legal charge__Unjust vexation?

The woman who sued the trooper alleged that her first and fourth amendment rights were violated, can anyone kindly shed light on this.

 2016/4/10 0:45Profile
Jasmine
Member



Joined: 2005/11/19
Posts: 100


 Re:

I said “IF” and I stand by that

I have never known anyone to say we should proselytize on our jobs. If anything we were admonished to be the best employees we could be doing our job as unto the Lord. This meant giving an honest days work for an honest days pay and that it was okay to share Christ on our break time including lunch because that was our time. People don't want to hear about your God when you don't walk in integrity. Like Paul said we are walking epistles read by men. What we say should line up with the life we live and God we say we serve. Even before I became Born Again, I was impressed by those who lived their faith and didn't just talk about it. So I guess with some of this we're just gonna have to agree to disagree.

 2016/4/10 1:30Profile









 Re:

1 Peter 2:18-20

Servants (employees), be subject to your masters (employers) with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

 2016/4/10 1:47
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re: blaine

Quote:
by bearmaster
At least the trooper was sharing Jesus. Whether he should have been doing it in the context of his job or not can be debated. But at least he was sharing Jesus.

But then before we judge the trooper. How many of us actively share Jesus???


From what I've read in this thread, the people weren't judging the trooper and "his" behavior but it was disagreement with your assessment (& others) that he was persecuted for his faith. I could be wrong but I don't believe they are one and the same! :)

God bless you, Blaine
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2016/4/10 5:38Profile









 Re: The Bigger Picture Here

Acts 4:14-17

Now as the observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus. And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them and they had nothing to say in reply. But when they had ordered them to leave the Council, they begin to confer with one another, saying, "What shall we do with these men? For the fact that a noteworthy miracle has taken place through them is apparent to all who live in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it. BUT SO THAT IT WILL NOT SPEAD ANY FURTHER AMONG THE PEOPLE, LET US WARN THEM TO SPEAK NO LONGER TO ANY MAN IN THIS NAME."

Acts 4:18-20

And when they had summoned them they commanded them NOT TO SPEAK OR TEACH AT ALL IN THE NAME OF JESUS. But Peter and John answered and said to them, "WHETHER IT IS RIGHT IN THE SIGHT OF GOD TO GIVE HEED TO YOU RATHER THAN GOD YOU BE THE JUDGE; FOR WE CANNOT STOP SPEAKING WHAT WE GAVE SEEN AND HEARD."

CAPS are for emphasis only.......

Peter and John you must keep quiet. You mustn't go out and speak about this preacher Jesus. Follow Him in your heart but respect the religious authority of this nation. Do not be dissentious. Do not rock the boat. You know what happened when Jesus went against the established authority. He was crucified and hung on a cross. Please do not follow in that path.

Go to the synagogue. Live out the righteousness of Moses in the law. If you must speak of Jesus do it quietly. Do not do it when you are attending the synagogue. Do not do it when you are speaking in the temple. Do not resist the religious authority that are appointed by God over you. For Judaism is the religion of Israel. To speak of this rabbi Jesus is simply not good nor is it correct. Don't do it publicly. Keep your faith in Jesus in your own home. But don't bring it into the public square. Don't mention His name. For to do so will evoke controversy.

I imagine if the apostles had been living in 2016 the above would be the advice that would be given to them in this politically correct environment. And this is the bigger picture. If we keep silent about the name of Jesus we are safe. Indeed had the apostles kept silent about the Name of Jesus.They would not have died a martyr's death. But then some in this forum will say they were not persecuted for their faith. They were not persecuted for their faith because they were preaching Jesus. When they should not have been preaching Jesus against the religious authorities command. Had they kept silent. They would have been safe.

Indeed if the church for the last 2,000 years have kept quiet about Jesus. There would be no persecuted church. If the saints in North Korea and Somalia keep quiet about Jesus. They would be safe. In restricted nations where evangelism is forbidden by law if You don't preach Jesus you are safe.

Some would say that the persecuted church invites persecution up on them self. Okay let me stand corrected. That preaching the gospel in a hostile environment is not considered persecution. Some would reason that if Christians are preaching the gospel in areas where it is illegal to preach the gospel. They would say that the Christians have invited trouble upon themselves. In my discussions with Christians about the persecuted church I have heard this reasoning. Indeed they would say they should keep quiet about Jesus and simply live it out and not say anything. And they would be safe. After all Romans 13 says we must obey the governing authorities. Obey the governing authorities and do not preach Jesus and you will be safe. Disobey the governing authorities and preach Jesus and you will incur the consequences upon yourself. Oh and by the way do not say that this is persecution. You are simply in inviting trouble on yourself because you are disobeying the governing authorities if you evangelize. Simply, persecuted church, obey your governing and religious authorities and not preach Jesus and you will not be persecuted. Keep him in secret. Don't evangelize and preach Jesus in the public Arena. Be safe.

Acts 5:17-21

But the high priest rose up, along with all his associates (that is the set of the Sadducees), and they were filled with jealousy. They laid hands on the apostles and put them in a public jail. But during the night an angel of the Lord opened the gates of the prison and taking them out he said, "GO AND SPEAK TO THE PEOPLE IN THE TEMPLE THE WHOLE NESSSGE OF THIS LIFE."
Upon hearing this they entered into the temple about daybreak and begin to teach.

Acts 5:27-32

When they had brought them, they stood them before the Council. The high priest questioned them, saying, "We gave you strict orders NOT TO CONTINUE TEACHING IN THIS NAME and yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man's blood upon us."

Then Peter and the apostles answered, "WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN. The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging him on a cross. He is the one whom God exalted at His right hand as a Prince and a Saviour to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are Witnesses of these things, and so is the holy spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.

CAPS are for emphasis only.......

Brothers and sisters had the apostles kept quiet they would have been safe. However they had a revelation from an angel. The angel of the Lord told him to go and preach the message of this life. They were not to preach this message. he message of Christ, at a safe distance from the temple. They were the preach the message in the temple itself where they would surely invite the erath of the religious authorities. But the apostles were under a Heavenly command to go and preach the life of Jesus.

For us has the command of the Great Commission, the command to preach the gospel to all creation, been revoked? Are we not to preach the gospel, to preach Jesus, even in hostile areas that are opposed to the gospel.

Yes we can do the safe thing. We can live out our lives quietly in the hope that others will see us being Salt and Light. We can heed the words of st. Francis that say preach the gospel. Use words only when necessary. For sure our walk must match our talk. But there are times when we will have to talk of Jesus. And that may very well bring the consequences of termination of employment. Perhaps bring the consequences of termination of life.

Brothers and sisters 30 years ago this officer sharing his faith with those whom he ticketed, even with those he would arrest, would have been commended. It would have been commended even by the non-believers 30 or 40 years ago. But we are living it up in a politically correct environment where to speak the name of Jesus will incur the displeasure of the powers-that-be. Be they in the government or religious sector.

Thirty or forty years ago a thread like this would have been ludicrous. It would have been understood that we were under a command to preach the gospel. But the politically correct environment of our day brings disdain upon those who take a stand for righteousness and preach Jesus. Even disdain from other Christians. After all people like Ken Miller and this trooper in Indiana are an embarrassment to the established church. For they are not obeying the politically correct government.

There will come a time, and indeed is already here, when to speak the name of Christ will be illegal. Indeed in the workplace and even in the public sector it is frowned on. Even considered illegal to speak the name of Christ. To do so will bring consequences. But then to speak the name of Christ in the public sector is not considered persecution if the consequences are adverse. Somehow my readings of church history have been skewed on this.

Forty years ago when I was in university pursuing a history degree. We could speak the name of Christ in the classroom. We could write about Jesus. The professor would have disagreed. There would have been spirited debate. But I would not have been dismussed from my degree program because I wrote about Jesus. This is not the case with students that are in secular University. There have been numerous cases where students have been dismissed from their degree programs because they stood for the Lord Jesus Christ. But indeed had they kept silent about Christ they would have been safe and gotten their degree.

Yesterday I posted and remembered the martyrdom of Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Had Bonhoeffer been silent about his faith convictions. He would have lived a safe life. Indeed he could have stayed in America and have pursued the American dream of being a great intellectual. But Bonhoeffer was not silent. I will simply in this post which I know it's lengthy with his quote...

Silence in the face of evil is evil itself. God will not hold as Guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.

Each of us will have to decide in our hearts when are we going to speak out. When are we going to speak out about Jesus and His truth. Human reasoning will say be silent Don't rock the boat. Live out your faith quietly and in private.

But I believe God compels us to speak out. He compels us and commands us to go and preach the gospel to all creation. Even at the expense of our own lives. This is what our brothers and sisters are doing in foreign lands. This is what we must do. Does God call us to do the safe thing. Or does God call us to recklessly abandon oirselvrs as unto him. And to go preach Jesus?

Btothets and siaters you be the judge.

My thoughts.

Blaine Scogin

Reedited for grammatical correction.















 2016/4/10 9:38









 Re:

Ok Bear,
I said I wasn't going to post for awhile, but after reading your last post here I gotta say something.....Amen brother!!

Blaine, because you are "so focused" on this one issue, persecution, I can tell you that people tend to discount (& even discredit or totally ignore) your posts on the subject. Just telling you the truth (we actually had this conversation among brethren in our fellowship sitting at the park while the kids played). Your so "burdened", so "focused", etc. on our persecuted brethren that people tend to highly take your posts on the subject with a gain of salt. But brother, if/when you're right , you're right. Doesn't mean you're always right, but none of us are. But brother, on this, you are right, you are on to something, you used the scriptures to back it, not American Cultural Business Enterprise PC Logic, but scripture & the mind, heart, & will of the Father. As well as church history.

I'll say it once again: many of us have been a frog in such warm (getting warmer & now hot) water on the stove for so long in this culture that's often more ingrained in our thinking than the Word of God (Romans 12:2 would be good to review here). If it comes down to it, "Let God be true, and every man a liar"!!! & "should we obey men rather than God?" I know I know, that sounds so foolish to much more intelligent & well thought out American business men, but if one is a fool, let him be a fool for Christ.

This reminds me of a story I heard once: the head of an American mission board went to the airport & picked up a leader in the Chinese underground church (back when it was red hot & the persecution was the most intense, but equally met with revival spreading like wildfire). The Chinese leader asked the American how witnessing Christ & his evangelism was going in his secular workplace job. The American said, "oh no, you see, we can't do that here in America. We could lose our job." The Chinese underground leader began crying. As the tears ran down his face he said, "I do not mean to judge you or be critical, but we in China lose not only our jobs for evangelizing our coworkers, but often can lose our homes, our every possession, & even our very lives. Why would you fear losing your job here in America where you can just go get another job anyways?

"The last will be first & the first last".

Romans 12:2
"Do not be conformed any longer to the pattern of this world, but rather be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good & acceptable & perfect."

God Bless you Bro,
Jeff

 2016/4/10 10:30
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1727
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

If someone is stopped by an officer they are by definition under arrest. You cannot just leave at your own behest unless you want additional charges.

While under arrest, an officer starts asking you questions. Other than your identity and your license, registration and proof of insurance, such questions may amount to custodial interrogation.

Custodial interrogation entitles me to being warned about my rights to remain silent, and that anything I say may be used against me. Suppose you are stopped and the questions move into your belief and faith in Jesus. What is the right answer? Do I tell the officer I am a Christian in hopes of release? Do I need to produce "my papers" (show him my well worn bible or my YouVersion app) to demonstrate my bona fides? Am I risking treatment based on my responses to his inquiries? How will I know he is NOT basing his treatment of me on my willingness to listen or to identify as a Christian?

These are the first and fourth amendment concerns of anyone stopped by him, maybe oversimplified.

But, he has some, too. The point is made here that evangelizing is beyond the scope of his job. So are canned food drives and toys for tots at Christmas time, but the officers are often enlisted to participate. Officers are judged by their colleagues and supervisors on their willingness to jump in on these things. It is not enough to simply say, "evangelizing is not his job" when policing powers routinely engage in public relations that are unrelated to their purpose of imposing and enforcing laws. He is being singled out for the content of his communication.

His problem is that, in the particular context of police powers, his communication is --- legally speaking --- very likely a form of oppression of its own.

May I give an analogy outside of police powers? Teachers. (Yes, GND2). I do NOT want any teacher proselytizing my child at school, even if it is Christian evangelism. Why? Because, my child should be free to think and perform as a student free of any pressure to hold to any viewpoint. Kids DO view teacher assessments of them as pressure to conform, and the truth is teachers pressure students to conform to their peculiar community moral standards. For example, kids who wear certain cosmetics or clothing styles are treated with disrespect or disdain or open scolding for it by teachers. There is a pressure to conform to the teachers' own self formed norms for what a youngster ought to be and how they should act. Teachers whose students are poorer or whse families cannot afford the vehicles they themselves drive or who cannot vacation where the teachers do are tracked over into being afterthoughts in the classroom. POINT being that in the context of a power based relationship where the State agent of that power must do his or her job in a way that is compulsory (police compel you to stop so you do; laws compel you to go to school and follow their rules, so you go and do), it is NEVER a free will relationship and every person in such jobs owes a special duty (never itself obeyed, BTW, particularly in our police-worship and teacher-worship culture)) to remove himself or herself personally from the role and to simply do the job.

I do not trust any agent of the state with the precious jewel of God's Word and bringing it to bear in the lives of people, and especially not during their job duties.

The Indiana trooper is, I hope, truly sincere for Jesus. His firing is a favor to him by the Lord who loves him. He is now free to live out God's call to all of His children to evangelize. He should, I hope, seek employment outside of law enforcement or any other line of work where he is the agent of the strong arm of the State.


_________________
Tim

 2016/4/10 11:54Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Bear-

if the trooper was a muslim evangelizing stopped motorists to the ways of Allah and Mohammed his prophet, and was fired for it, would you be making the same argument?

Unless you can show that he was fired specifically because of the Christian nature of his message, I don't see how it can be called persecution.

Peter and John were preachers (apostles). The sanhedrin told them not to preach. They could not obey the sanhedrin and God. They made the right choice and were punished for it. That is a different, far different, scenario than this trooper. He was not hired to preach- he was hired to enforce traffic laws.


_________________
Todd

 2016/4/10 12:34Profile





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