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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Third temple - Is it the church?

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Blaine states

"do not want to interrupt the flow of the conversation here."

Please,please stop the flow of this scripture twisting and misleading cesspool of false doctrine being promoted here by the wwe tag team of Sermon Index

 2016/4/17 17:50

 Re: Notdarkyet

Brother please check out my thread on The Shaking of All Things. I think you will see what I believe regarding the end times. Also God is literally shaking things up (sorry I could not resist that).

Right now we have greater concerns. Namely the Lord Jesus is getting ready to return soon.

 2016/4/17 19:13


Thank you Blaine

I aready responded to your very excellent post with an
a few puns of my own. Sorry did not mean to derail your
insightful commentary and scriptures posted

 2016/4/17 19:29


Great point Twayne B,
In fact, I just got through reading a chapter of Mideast Beast, the book I'm reading right now from Joel Richardson on the Islamic Antichrist & he is going through all of these passages. And this one particular in Daniel is amazing because the historians site that the Roman Wmpire as Far East as Jerusalem & beyond by 70 AD was not Roman/Italian Ethnos people's. The Roman Empire was basically expanding by this era essentially through hired mercenaries of the people's from the surrounding local/regions where they took expansion territory. And there is great record actually that the "actual Romans" tried to stop it, but the Syrians & surrounding Arab people's as essentially hired mercenaries he such a hate for the Jews they would not (sound familiar?). And there is extensive proof of this. So the same "Ethnos" (Arabs) who were of that time destroying Jerusalem will again at the end. I have been wondering why I am going to Isreal now at the clear leading of the Lord for the first time at 40 years old in a few months. These could be the beginnings of some rapid acceleration events on the time lock of our Lord at the end (and yes, the last days started at Christ's ascension, but there's 2 different words used in the original language & the one that was the root word when the Angel told Daniel "these things refer to the time of the End" mean like "the end of the end" or "the very end", not just "the last days" in general). - FYI.
Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus!

 2016/4/17 23:46

 Re: Matthew 24

Dear twayneb,
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to express in more details why I have this opinion about Matthew 24.
"I cannot reason how you say verses 29-31 of Matt. 24 speak of the change of covenant from law to grace".
It's the fullfillment of the law, the whole world of the Jews is shaken (spiritually spoken) and passes away (but there is life waiting for them in Jesus) almost in an apocalyptic way the sun darkens etc. These are images symbolizing that a great change is taking place in the spiritual realm. In the physical realm their centre of worship is gone and they cease to exist on the land as a nation many will be killed. It is quite shocking, the same way as the darkening of the sun would be shocking.
"I do know that Daniel speaks of the people of the prince that is to come, which I take to mean that there is a relationship between the destruction of 70 A.D. and the abomination that makes desolate, but that they are not the same event. Two time periods and two different people. One in 70AD, and the other by the prince that is to come."
I would like to explore this later. Will continue...

 2016/4/17 23:57

 Re: Matthew 24

"It seems to me with the other verses, you are reading an opinion into the verses, giving them that flavor. Matthew does not clearly indicate.that verse 15 and following speak of the destruction of 70 A.D.. One must read that interpretation into the text in my opinion. What one reads into the text can very heavily effect ones interpretation" I give some more explanation below, I try to read into the text as little as possible. Also I might be wrong about things, please keep pointing out the weakest parts so I can either explain them or change my theory.
The disciples asked three questions to Jesus, not long after He prophesied about the destruction of the temple.
1. When shall these things be? (Is it reasonable to assume that they meant: when will the temple be destoyed?)
2 - 3 What will be the sign of His coming and the end of the world.
It seems to me that they might have thought all three would happen at the same time.
Now we know the time when the temple was destroyed (it's 70 AD). We also know that his second coming and the end of the world has not yet come. (Nobody has seen him coming back and the world remained sort of the same.)
In the first part of the chapter Jesus talks about the destruction of the temple and the fearful times surrounding that event, the early forming of the church in the midst of persecution, occassionally gives outlook to the future of the church (verse14), and gives lots of signs that the disciples should watch for, and also assures them that these troublous times do not signify his second coming. This part ends with verse 34.
Starting with verse 36 he talks about his second coming which can happen literally any time without any sign, that's why we have to be always ready.
It is my impression from reading this chapter that Jesus was telling the disciples that all those "troubles" have to happen before his coming back.

I will continue, (sorry I have trouble posting longer texts)

 2016/4/18 0:18

 Re: Matthew 24

For us this information is not as important as it was for the disciples since we already know that "these things" happened (in the diciples' lifetime) and we would not think by mistake that "these things" signify the second coming that we still are expectantly looking forward to.
I wholeheartedly agree with Blain that we should be prepared to his second coming and that it can happen any time. (I've read the "shaking" post) But my opinion differs from his about how we should prepare. I do not think we should look for signs and events that preceed the second coming (it was maybe a good idea for the disciples in Jesus' time).
I would prepare as Jesus had always taught:
- keep oil in the lamp
- confess him to the people
- preach the gospel
- live a holy life
- keep his commandments
- abide in him
- etc.
My preparation would not necessarily mean staying up to date with current politics.
That's the world, brothers, but we are supposed to keep our eyes on Jesus.

(Only my opinion),
God bless,

 2016/4/18 0:35

 Re: Matthew 24

"I don't think that Matt. 24:34 is difficult to interpret, but I think many traditional eschatology teachers have read into it something that may not be there. The budding fig tree, in my opinion, is not Israel becoming a nation. There is no clear reason for it to be. Instead, it is an analogy of our seeing the signs and knowing the time is at hand. An likewise, I do not think "this generation" is those who were live when Israel became a state again. Again, we would have to read something into the text for that interpretation. "
I agree.

 2016/4/18 0:48

Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2222

 Re: The two seeds

"Hardly enough could be said about Gen 3:15. It is the seed bed, not only of the gospel but of the whole comprehensive mystery of God that is finished with the 7th trumpet (Rev 10:7). The two seeds establish the two lines of men by which the plan of redemption can be traced from beginning to end. It is more than Messiah and Satan. It anticipates the line of the ungodly making up the city of man, mystery Babylon, and the line of the children of the Spirit who are headed up in the Messiah who form corporately the city of God, the heavenly Zion."

"These two lines are really two natures, the nature of Satan in fallen man and the nature of God in His saints. These two natures that run through the whole of humanity come to their fullness and perfection in a personal incarnation in the two princes of Dan 9:25-26. Both the seed of the serpent and the woman’s seed are ordained to come to ultimate perfection and final manifestation in a personal incarnation. Paul will speak of the “mystery of godliness” (1Tim 3:16) and its antithesis, the “mystery of iniquity” (2Thes 2:7). The mystery of iniquity that is presently working, comes to final revelation in the ‘man of sin’ after the one who is restraining is removed. As Jesus would be the ultimate Seed of the woman who perfects in His humanity the mystery of godliness, so also the seed of the serpent must come to a similar fullness of Satan in the flesh. Thus, the two princes of Dan 9:25-26 fulfill two distinct mysteries that bound the present age between the two comings of Christ." (R. Kelly)

David Winter

 2016/4/18 10:25Profile

 Re: Daniel 9:24-27

twayneb said:
"I do know that Daniel speaks of the people of the prince that is to come, which I take to mean that there is a relationship between the destruction of 70 A.D. and the abomination that makes desolate, but that they are not the same event. Two time periods and two different people. One in 70AD, and the other by the prince that is to come."
In Luke 20-21 it is literally said that the army is the one that makes desolate please compare to Matthew 24:15-16 and Daniel 9:24-27. And it IS talking about the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in 70 Ad.
Alternative theory:
Daniel 9:24-27
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

In 70 weeks these were accomplished by Jesus and he was also anointed to be the king over his people the church, the kingdom of God.

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

The Messiah Prince is Jesus, his coming is the first coming. The 70 weeks in year-weaks are 70*7=490 years. According to Nehemiah 2:1-8 in the 20th year of king Artaxerxes he received command to build the city.
Artaxerxes began to reign in 465BC (wikipedia). So the command was in 445 BC.
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

After 69 (7+62 = 69) weeks that is 483 (69*7=483) years by 37AD, (-445+483=37) Jesus died on the cross and after this the Romans (these were the people of the next ruler) came and destroyed the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (temple) until they completed desolation which is determined by God.
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

He (JESUS) confirmed the covenant with many (his first jewish followers) during his ministry for about 3 years. Then (in the middle of the 7 years) by his death on the cross he stopped the temple sacrifices and after this through war the temple and the city was completely destroyed.

 2016/4/21 17:05

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