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Discussion Forum : Miracles that follow the plow : Prayer and support for Ken Miller

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Todd nor will I turn you in either bro. :-) The case is a complicated one. If your research it on the internet. And certainly go to the miller I think more facts will begin to emerge.

Thinking of starting a thread on political correctness. I do not want to take away from what Leslie has started on this thread. And that is to pray for a brother who will be serving time in prison. Certainly to pray that God would use him in the lives of prisoners who need to hear about Jesus. And certainly to pray for his family to be strengthened. Pray that the judge and Janet Jenkins will come to a saving faith and life in the Lord Jesus Christ.

When this case first started I believe Ken Miller was defended by David Burko who wrote The Kingdom Turned Upside Down. Don't know if that means anything. But felt led to put this in a poat.

By the way Todd are you a lawyer? Only ask because you mentioned bar exam. I facilitate CLE seminars myself.

Posted with a :-).

Brother Blaine

 2016/3/24 15:20



Regarding the previous question concerning whether it is permissable to conceal those who are being sought by murderers, my belief is that it is, even to the point of lying (witness Rahab) because by doing so you are preventing a much greater crime.

 2016/3/24 15:32


Brenda that is an excellent insight regarding rehab. Welcome back to the form dear sister.


 2016/3/24 15:43


Thank you dear Blaine.

 2016/3/24 15:55


Thanks Blaine, Todd, Mark and Brenda for filling in with so much.
Blaine the music on is on the far right hand side of the screen where there are other topics. On SI it is under audio listings under music. I listen to Aileen Gilcrest there too.

It was important to mention that the original judge in the divorce/custody case ignored Lisa's fear about sexual abuse of her daughter. No wisdom of Solomon there. She fled to protect her daughter. What a can of worms Satsn has wrought with this lawless legalization of same sex marriage.

I urge all of you to watch Dennis Jernigan's testimony in 'Sing Over Me'. As a young boy, a man exposed himself to him in a bathroom and he was drawn into sexual activity with other young boys. Then in college a Christisn leader made a sexual advance on him and things went from bad to worse until the torment nearly drove him to suicide. He was born again in 1981 and God delivered him from this sin. It is a very moving and glorious testimony and he has a ministry to those trapped in homosexuality, but we must pray for those who are set free for now they can be called 'hateful' for telling of their deliverance from sin. And it does no good to rant and rave against those trapped in this sin for in doing so we may drive many to suicide as happened to a friend of my daughter's, Matthew Bardin, age 25. A young man who signed up recently on SI understands this, Michsel Liau.
Sis L

 2016/3/24 18:04


Hi sister Leslie,
For me at least the alleged sexual abuse is the kicker in all of this. And it makes perfect sense as to why Lisa fled like this. I imagine if this was my child and I was convinced that there was sexual abuse going on, I would also feel that I would have no other choice but to flee with the child and suffer the consequences.

I think Lisa did the right thing:-)

 2016/3/24 18:55

Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5639


The only tiny reservation I have is that in bitter divorce proceedings there are often lies told about each other in order to improve ones position. A wife may claim her husband physically abused her or in some cases may say he abused the children. A husband might claim that the wife's new boyfriend abuses the children. The horrible thing is that it is difficult to defend groundless accusations when it is he said/she said.

I am NOT saying that Lisa is lying about this. But it may explain the judges refusal to take the allegation into consideration. He has likely heard it all before.


 2016/3/24 22:05Profile


Yes Todd, it makes no sense that allegations of sexual abuse would be ignored by the courts. If they were real or there was evidence why wasn't CPS involved? Was there a case officer assigned? If not why not? If so, was a report given to the judge? Anyone know about this?

 2016/3/24 23:32


I don't mean to sound contradictory but we were discussing this as a family tonight and wondering if this really is religious persecution against a godly man as the reason why he was thrown into prison?

I am not so sure to be honest.

Would we say this about a non-believer or a Muslim who had aided and abetted a kidnapping?

Ken told the judge he broke the law on religious grounds. But did he? I thought it was to help the mother get her child out of a sexually abusive situation?

The law applies to everyone equally so on that basis I think it is reasonable to suggest that this DOES NOT qualify as religious persecution but is rather someone breaking kidnapping laws. That is the reason Ken Miller is in jail today. Doesn't make the laws right though and we should still pray for the family.

Perhaps someone smarter than me can show how this imprisonment is religious persecution...I am open to seeing other points of view, thanks.

 2016/3/24 23:40

 Re: Mark

Brother the Supreme Court has ruled that marriage is now between a man and a man and a woman and a woman. This is the law of the land. This is the law that has to be obeyed. This is a law that is now on the books.

So you are an evangelical pastor who believes that marriage is between a man and a woman. A same-sex couple comes to you for marriage. Can you obey the above law and perform a sanctified marriage for a same-sex couple. Can you obey the above law with a clear conscience. Particularly when the law of God is that marriage is between a man and a woman. Brother just because something is on the books and it is called federal law. Does not mean that the law is just in the eyes of God. Particularly in the case of two of the same sex who wish to be married.

Let us say that you are a Christian wedding caterer. You take a sanctified view of marriage as between a man and a woman. Your job is to provide services for weddings. Up until now your clients have been heterosexual couples. All of a sudden a same sex couple approaches you for services for a same sex wedding. Can you with a clear conscience provide those services knowing that God's word teaches that marriage is between a man and a woman? Yet federal law says you cannot discriminate against this couple.

Let us say that you run a Christian adoption agency. Your desire is to place children in a loving Christian home. That is a home where the parents are a man and a woman. All of a sudden you are approached by a same-sex couple who profess to be Christians who want to adopt. Federal law says you cannot discriminate against this couple. Yet you know the word of God teaches that a child is to be raised by a mother and a father. Not by a father and a father. Or a mother and a mother. Can you with a clear conscience provide adoption services do the same sex couple?

Brother I can go on with example after example. Just because there are federal laws on the books does not mean that these laws are enforced justly or with common sense. And in the case of same-sex marriage when these laws are enforced they go against the higher
law of God.

Brother in the examples I gave above one can argue Romans 13 and say that the evangelical pastor, Christian wedding caterer, or the Christian adoption agency owner should obey federal law. But then they have to wrestle with their conscience knowing that federal law is in violation of God's law.

But brother let's take it one step further. You are an evangelical pastor who faithfully expounds and preaches God's word from cover to cover. You come to Romans 1:18-32. You know there are laws on the books at the federal level that make hate speech against any group, this would be the LBGT illegal. You know in your heart of hearts that if you preach through Romans 1:17 thru 32 which describe the origins of homosexuality you could very well land in jail. What do you do? Do you avoid going through that section of scripture. And move on to Romans 2? Can you do this with a clear conscience?

Mark do you see. Just because there are federal laws on the books. These laws are not always just. Or enforced with a sense of justice.

Brother, in the early centuries of the church, the believers faithfully obeyed the just laws of the Roman government when they did not contradict with the laws of God. But when Caesar passed a law requiring he be recognized as God. And that a sacrifice be offered to him to show allegiance to Rome. The Christiane had to disobey this law with the consequences that it entailed. The consequences being that many lost their lives for their faith in Christ.

Brother we do honor Romans 13 and submit to the governing authorities. But submission to governing authorities must end when the laws of temporal government conflict with the higher Eternal laws with God. What that point would be for each person must be directed by the Holy Spirit. But there will come a point when we say we must obey God rather than man.

I do not know if I have addressed your qyestions. But I hope some of my thoughts help.

This is respectfully posted.

Brother Blaine

 2016/3/25 8:38

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