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I do not follow American Politics though I now live in US. But this article gave me an impression that Trump was not a Christian even in his claim. This article is not at all addressed in the spirit of warning the Church against a false brother ( like 1 Cor 5). Definitely it is not. At the starting itself David writes this, "Let's face it. Trump is no evangelical. He proudly acknowledged that he had no need of God's forgiveness."
The moment he has acknowledged these 2 things he is not a Christian or a fellow brother. In US almost everyone acknowledges themselves as Christians but that does not make them brother of us. And we do not have the responsibility to judge their Christianity.
Apostle Paul judged a brother who was in the Church and living in adultery. Trump is not even close to being a brother in the Church of God. Trump is no threat to David's Church or the Church of God. He may call himself as Christian for political gain but that does not make him in the same league as false brothers inside Church.
Apostle Pauls letter in 1 Cor 5 is to save the Church. But this letter is to save a nation called America. Unless David and SI believe in the lie that America is a God chosen Church or nation.
David has clearly did what Apostle Paul said he will never do which is in 1 Cor 5-12:-
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside.
| 2016/3/2 13:26||Profile|
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I tend to the same understanding you have of those scriptures, and we are told by Christ to love, and be willing to lay ourselves down if necessary that He (Christ) might be magnified in us.
Also Romans 13 makes it pretty clear what our position in relation to our governing authorities should look like. One of the people seeking the office of POTUS will in fact become that authority and place their hand on the bible to take the oath of office. So I'd encourage us to stay our tongue lest we find need later to repent of our lack of disciplining it.
| 2016/3/2 13:38||Profile|
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Bro Greg writes.......
"That might be the crux of the issue and hitting to the heart of the problem. It will be "christians" who will persecute believers in the end times."
Indeed. The religious, the flesh, have always been the deadliest enemies of those of the spirit. When the Lutheran church in Germany had a chance to speak out and stand against Hitler, it did not in fact quite the opposite. The confessing church in Germany never considered itself to be a schism but indeed the Body of Christ departing from an institution given over to the world...............bro Frank
| 2016/3/2 13:49|
| Re: Fletcher|
Brother our choice for president may very well come down to Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump. To say that both of these people are not believers and in need of the saving grace of Jesus Christ is not judgement. It is simply a fact. The testimony of their lives and what comes out of their mouth make that very obvious.
If I make the statement that Barack Hussein Obama is not a Christian. It is not a judgement. But again a statement of fact. The policies of the President and his condemnation of the Christian faith make it obvious that he does not know Jesus Christ. And again he is in need of the saving grace of Jesus Christ.
Not judging are condemning any of the above. But when we look at the likes of Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, or Barack Hussein Obama, it is obvious that these people do not know the Lord Jesus Christ. And certainly do not have his Spirit ruling in their heart.
I do agree. We need to pray for whoever the next president will be. And we need to pray for this current president. If anything we need to pray that they come into a saving relationship with Jesus Christ.
Simply my thoughts.
| 2016/3/2 13:57|
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Brother Frank I agree. It seems like God is calling for the remnant to come out of the Babylon of the American evangelical political church.
Simply my thoughts bro.
| 2016/3/2 14:01|
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To say that both of these people are not believers and in need of the saving grace of Jesus Christ is not judgement. It is simply a fact. The testimony of their lives and what comes out of their mouth make that very obvious.
If David Ravenhill just ended up saying Trump is not a Christian then it is fine. He made that comment at the begining of the article itself that he is not a Christian. Then he goes on to find faults in his life like multiple wives, boasting etc. Do you think Apostle Paul will write a letter judging a non Christian? I think this article went too much into the life of Trump.
| 2016/3/2 14:13||Profile|
| Re: |
I wonder how Paul the Apostle behaved while a prisoner of Caesar? Did he undermine and speak evil of him or did redemptive grace flow forth from his life? If Paul spoke evil of him then he died not for the cause of Christ, but for his own cause. That is not a glory to God. If Paul blessed Caesar and his household without cursing them, then it is a glory to God that Paul died a martyrs death in the service of our Lord. Serving the Lord in the same way that Christ served us and demonstrated to us how to walk in a fallen world before those who persecute us.
The Constitution gives us "Freedom of Speech", but does the Lord give us the same? Do we as Christians have freedom to say anything we desire to rulers and leaders? I hear so many Christians railing against rulers. This is their world, played by their rules and very little redemptive grace is going forth from the Church to ungodly men.
How will God get our attention and put us back on the same course as the Apostles and the Early Church? I fear when persecution comes, those who name the name of Christ will turn to the arm of the flesh. For those who are railing and cursing now, will no doubt pick up arms and seal their delusion.
| 2016/3/2 14:14|
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When in Corinth, those who had been baptized into the faith but were not walking in the spirit but were in fact in the flesh, did Paul ever once say or even question their salvation? Or did he consistently try to remind them of Christ and Him crucified so that they may be renewed in the spirit of their minds as to the truth that they had been bought with a price?
Again I'm not supporting nor condoning either their actions or positions, personally or politically, but if they have been baptized into the faith then wether they live like it or not, they are my brothers and sisters in Christ and while I certainly share in your desire to see them grow and become fully ripened (perfected) in Christ it just isn't our place to judge another persons salvation, that is reserved by God for Himself alone.
Also as Sree has pointed out, if you maintain that they are not Christians then we have no place (scripturally) to judge them.
I mean if these individuals aren't being saved and are in a present state of unrepentant sin, never having known Christ as Lord and savior then what do we really expect of a fallen people? Do we expect one apart from Christ to walk by the spirit when we ourselves (clearly) struggle with it even with His spirit abiding in us?
I say these things in love brother in hopes to remind us not to look to earthly things but to look on things which are above where Christ is seated:)
| 2016/3/2 14:34||Profile|
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That's the entire crux of the issue. Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are not our brothers and sisters. Now if people don't know the things that those two have said, and done, and stood for, then someone in ignorance ( and I say that not derogatorily but in the purest definitional sense of the word which means "a lack of knowledge"), I can understand what you're saying as being easily misunderstood and attempting to be gracious. But when you know what these people have actually said, and done, and continue to do, and how they play I can understand what you're saying as being easily misunderstood and attempting to be gracious. But when you know what these people have actually said, and done, and continue to do, and how they playcate four votes and make statements about them being Christians when they not only have no testimony and clearly don't even understand the Gospel, but the things they stand for, and say, and two are actually opposed to the gospel, then I think first Corinthians 5 applies .
I get it, I understand wrote this to the Corinthian church for someone within their fellowship. I get it, I understand and wrote this to the Corinthian church for someone within their fellowship. However, I believe people have tried to go to these people privately, and publicly because I've seen the interviews and explain these things and they clearly are not received and or understood, clearly because they're not believers in the biblical sense.
So I think analyzing the actual statements" that they themselves have made publicly is not wrong, that goes along with simple plain common sense judgment and discernment. In the same way that public fast teachers and it's a distort the gospel are not held to the first Corinthian's five procedure either. If they Fasley teach and preach publicly, and they are subject to be corrected, and repute publicly for the sake of the understanding young and immature sheep Who are not yet skilled in the word of God and discerning through constant use of it.
Donald Trump is not a Christian. He doesn't even know what the basketball is and has never asked God for forgiveness because he doesn't think he needs to. Hillary Clinton is not a Christian. She's as pro choice as they come (& Donald always has been too until this election possibility with the Republican Party). If you can't see/discern that plainly & simply, I really don't know what else to say that would be beneficial or for edification.
Fact is, "they claim to be a brother", so should be treated as 1 Corinthians 5 instructs
| 2016/3/2 14:35|
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The major clear and obvious difference is that Cesar did not claim to be a Christian
| 2016/3/2 14:36|