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TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Is 53:10, in regard to Jesus, says:

"Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief."

I dont think this mean God was happy about it; it means it was part of His plan.


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Todd

 2016/2/2 18:53Profile









 Re:

That is correct: It was part of His plan.

Brilliant observation, TMK: Isaiah 53.

That was His Father's calling for Him. He did not create Jesus for the sole purpose of destruction or dishonor, the Father called Jesus to a life that would be pleasing to Him. That is why "it pleased the Lord to bruise Him", because out of His bruising would come forth much healing, much fruit, and many sons to glory.

It is true that God's calling for Jesus did include dishonor and (seemingly) destruction. How many of us have not been called to dishonor, shame, rejection, slander, lies, etc, etc?

He is despised and REJECTED of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and WE HIS as it were OUR FACES from him; he was DESPISED, and we esteemed him not.

He was esteemed (by men) as forsaken and rejected even by God.

Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet WE DID ESTEEM HIM STRICKEN, SMITTEN OF GOD, and afflicted.

He even made his grave with the wicked.
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked...

 2016/2/2 20:19
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re: A question related to God's sovereignty

I suggest one do a thorough study of the history of God's people as recorded in the OT - being a an observer, asking God what this incident teaches you about Him, his relationship with people whether godly or wicked. And then, only then, ask this question. I think you will gain an understanding of the mind of God working in the affairs of man.

This has been my experience. As an outgrowth of this learning, insights, it has given me a wonderful handle on dealing with life issues - with the best one being that God is in control.

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2016/2/4 8:15Profile









 Re:

Romans 8:36-37

As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.


Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

 2016/2/4 10:06
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1727
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

You know, it testifies to our weak minds that beloved brethren come to this passage with so many varied understandings. Some of the most respected "names" of our time read this passage and have very differing views on it. It triggered my interest enough when I read this thread to peruse a little. R.C. Sproul, John Macarthur and John Piper -- Baptists all -- each view this passage with application to individual believers and individual election, but with very different ways of getting there. Sproul holds to "double predestination" from this passage. Macarthur says it applies to individuals but grammatically from Romans 9 argues (in similar fashion as our brother Julius) that men have made ourselves fit for destruction, not that God has prepared us to be so (which is a direct conflict with Sproul). John Piper is much closer to Macarthur than Sproul but hedges by treating it as a mystery we don't fully understand.

Other scholars not so famous are all over the map on the question. A valiant ongoing effort in some scholarly journals to have it both ways among some Calvinist scholars points up that there is a viable argument that God is not speaking about individual salvation or election in Romans 9. Otherwise, Calvinists would simply reject the idea of any non-individual reading and move along (and for sure, more than enough of them do, but none of them have gone so far as treating their brethren who want it both ways as handling "strange fire").

Unfortunately, the tail wags the dog, as it does too often. Calvinists who need Romans 9 to defend their view of election will not yield to the authority of the Scripture itself to speak for itself even if it means they are wrong; Arminians who must strike out at "double predestination" for their own reasons will either ignore Romans 9 altogether (which, in the rank and file is almost always so) or hope for any other lifeboat and are all too glad to hear that Romans 9 is NOT about individual election;
non-Calvinists who have no particular itch about election to scratch are far more inclined to view the passage carefully and let it speak for itself --- and many reach the same conclusions I have.


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Tim

 2016/2/4 11:31Profile









 Re:

Well said, dolfan.

Many doctrines have been created around a single scripture that are incongruous with the whole counsel of God and His character.

 2016/2/4 12:39
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Thought I’d offer my two cents here. I would agree with dolfan that the context necessitates an interpretation which sees nations as the primary focus there in Romans 9:22. However, as is the case with many other passages of Scripture, I believe it can also be applied in a secondary sense to individual salvation.

I think a key word from that verse that we must grapple with is the word “prepared”. I found it interesting to note that in the following verse which speaks of vessels of mercy “prepared” for glory, it’s a different Greek word used. In verse 22 the Greek word is “katartizo” and in verse 23 the Greek word is “proetoimazo”. In the KJV the first one is translated as “fitted” and the second one as “prepared”.

Based on what I read in Strong’s Greek lexicon, the first one seems to have the idea of, to perfect or complete, to strengthen, to mend or frame together. And the second one has the idea of, to prepare beforehand.

So in reference to those “prepared” or “fitted” for destruction, it could mean that God allows them to be strengthened in their wickedness and to make themselves fit for the destruction which they justly deserve. This would line up with verses 17-18 which speak of Pharaoh being hardened by God. In Exodus 8:32 we read that Pharaoh hardened his own heart against God. So what I get from that is that sinners harden their own hearts and God allows their hearts to be hardened more and more; and it's in that sense that God hardens them. On the other hand, those “prepared” for glory God predestined for salvation from before the foundation of the world as we clearly read in several scriptures. Yet we can also say that God also "prepared" the the wicked for destruction beforehand in the sense that He knew that they would prepare themselves for that destruction even before He created them, since He is omniscient.

So another thing we must grapple with here is the truth of God’s omniscience. We must seriously consider the question, did God really know all that would happen before He created the universe? If He did know all that would happen and if He is indeed All-powerful, it follows that He did indeed ordain both the salvation of His people and the destruction of the wicked. In order for Him not have ordained the destruction of the wicked, He would have to be stripped of His omniscience (which is the teaching of open theism, a heresy which some hold to). Again, if He is indeed omniscient and omnipotent and sovereign, it follows that He decreed or planned out what would happen. And again, otherwise you end up with a false weak deity that is not the God of the Bible.

So if God is omniscient, omnipotent and completely sovereign, and if He knew and planned all that would happen, including the fall of mankind and the final destruction of the wicked, does it follow that God is unjust or evil in any way for having allowed and ordained for that to come about? Of course not! The fact that God is omniscient and all-mighty does not make Him evil or unjust in any sense despite all the evil that we see in the world. God, in His omniscience and sovereignty ordained and allowed for there to be a fall of mankind, and He ordained and allowed for some sinners to be saved from that fall and for others to be justly condemned for their own wickedness. The thing we must understand is that it is the sinner who is guilty of his sin, not God. And it is the sinner who deserves to be punished in hell despite the fact that God knew beforehand that he would sin and merit eternal punishment. God simply allows sinners to do what they choose to do, which is to sin and store up for themselves wrath for the Day of Judgment (Rom. 2:5).

God is not obligated to save any sinner who justly deserves to be condemned in hell. But in His mercy He chose to save those who call upon His name to save them.


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Oracio

 2016/2/4 13:17Profile
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1727
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

That's right.


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Tim

 2016/2/4 14:11Profile
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1035
Oregon

 Re:


I am posting this in answer to Oracio's comment which implies that if God is both omniscient and omnipotent, then it follows that he must have ordained, decreed, or as is often said" willed" the destruction of the wicked.

Perhaps a quote from C.S. Lewis is in order here to answer your dilemma, which i think arises from the supposition that "will" is a simple disposition.

here is the quote: Hope it helps.

" Is this state of affairs in accordance with God's will or not? If it is, He is a strange God, you will say: and if it is not, how can anything happen contrary to the will of a being with absolute power?

But anyone who has been in authority knows how a thing can be in accordance with your will in one way and not in another. It may be quite sensible for a mother to say to the children, "I'm not going to go and make you tidy the schoolroom every night. You've got to learn to keep it tidy on your own." Then she goes up one night and finds the Teddy bear and the ink and the French Grammar all lying in the grate. That is against her will. She would prefer the children to be tidy. But on the other hand, it is her will which has left the children free to be untidy. The same thing arises in any regiment, or trade union, or school. You make a thing voluntary and then half the people do not do it. That is not what you willed, but your will has made it possible."


_________________
Fifi

 2016/2/4 14:14Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

No argument there UntoBabes. I guess it would come down to the meaning/s of words like ordain, will, decree and plan. I would never say that God ordained the destruction of the wicked in the sense that He desired it or that it was His ideal plan. I think that what I meant to say in my post would be in agreement with you and that C.S. Lewis quote, but maybe I didn't explain myself clearly enough. Appreciate the post UntoBabes.


_________________
Oracio

 2016/2/4 14:26Profile





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