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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : A Prophetic Word from Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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Thank you, staff. I will be considering all that you just wrote and get back to you.

 2016/1/13 21:09

Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1952


Hi Julius 21
Part 2
Why did Elijah have to come back not David or Moses or Jeremiah etc?

To understand this we have to accept that the bible has types and shadows
This is a definition I got from Theopedia which I agree with, nothing controversial in it as far as i can see.

Biblical typology
Typology is a method of biblical interpretation whereby an element found in the Old Testament is seen to prefigure one found in the New Testament. The initial one is called the type and the fulfillment is designated the antitype. Either type or antitype may be a person, thing, or event, but often the type is messianic and frequently related to the idea of salvation. The use of Biblical typology enjoyed greater popularity in previous centuries, although even now it is by no means ignored as a hermeneutic.

Basically there are a few different categories of Typology
I will be looking at Prophetic typology.Preachers use typology almost every week during sermons.

To find out why Elijah had to come and not the other prophets we have to check out who and what did Elijah do.Why is John the Baptist even associated with Elijah.?
We also have to answer where the term the "Spirit of Elijah"
originates as it seemed to upset some of the posters that I used that term.
Lets look at 2 Kings 2:15 where the term originates The prophets from the various schools said behold the "Spirit of Elijah" rests on Elisha
Elisha had followed Elijah around until Elijah was taken up by a Chariot,the hairy garment fell to Elisha and he put it on;This now brings Elisha into play when trying to explain the "Spirit of Elijah"We have three people now with hairy garments and are said to come in "Spirit Of Elijah"
Elijah and Elisha in Kings and John The Baptist Luke 1:17

What did Elijah Do?
A:He Prayed James 5:17 and the skys were shut up for three and a half years Luke 4:25 and James 5:17
B:He hid from Ahab(a type of AntiChrist)
C:Provided for a widow woman just as God provided miraclously for him while at the brook,
D:He challenged the prophets of bail to a contest on Mt Carmel 1 Kings 18 16:45
Before we go on this is a crucial part to understand why it had to be Elijah to come before Christ to make ready and not the other prophets so lets look at it.
Elijah and Mount Carmel
Look Carefully at what happened

A:Take a bull(a sacrifice) for yourselves and I will take a bull for myself the God that answers by fire is the real God to Paraphrase.A bull(a sacrifice) being a beast of burden signifying Christ burdening our sins 1 kings 18:22
B:Put it on wood but do not light 1 kings 18:23
C:At the time of the evening sacrifice the prophets of Baal ranted and raved and then came Elijahs Turn 1 kings 18:29 and 36
D:Elijah then did this he restored the altar of the lord that had been torn down,he took 12 stones and made an altar,
he arranged the wood in a certain way and cut the bull in pieces, put him on the altar,dug a trench that could hold a certain measure of seed and then strangely told his helpers to pour 4 jugs of water on the sacrifice 3 times.The Water ran over the offering the wood and filled the trench.
E:He prayed among other things that God would answer him so that they would know that he had turned their heart back again
F:The Fire fell and consumed everthing by licking it up

And thats what Elijah did and what John the Baptist had to do as well which he did.Look now how John the Baptist fullfilled the ministry of Elijah
1:Jesus was fulfilling prophesy here even though John didnt understand.Jesus knew that water had to be poured over the sacrifice (Jesus)by John as Elijah did on mount Carmel

Matt3:13 Then Jesus *arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him. 14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?” 15 But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he *permitted Him.

2:Their were also 12 stones that had water poured over them by Elijah (4 jugs multiply by 3 times = 12) and John fulfilled that by baptising the twelve stones the 12 Apostles
Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

3:Their was wood arranged in a certain way as was the cross made in certain way
4:Their was an evening sacrifice Jesus as in the Mt Carmel account.
5:Then the Fire fell by the ministry of Elijah as it did by the ministry of John the Baptist in Acts 1 at Pentecost.
Courtesy of Peter we know the link between Pentecost and John.

There is more typology I could say Elijah,John and Elisha all wore the same hairy Mantle(Jewish myth says that it was the exact same one but who knows) Elijah closed the sky for 3 1/2 years and John opened the sky for 3 1/2 years.
Elijahs head was wanted by an Evil Woman married to an an Evil King and John The Baptists Head was wanted and got by an Evil Woman married to An Evil King,
Both Elijah and John came preaching in the wilderness all Judea Jerusalem and the surrounds went out to see John is recorded and All Israel went out to see Elijah as recorded.
Theirs more down to little details the Holy Spirit came in a form of a Tongue on the day of Pentecost and he also not noticed by many came in the form of a tongue on mt carmel for he "licked up"

Thats why Elijah had to come before Christ and thats how John fullfilled his role as Elijah,He restored the 12 stones,he poured water and he made the fire fall.The whole prophetic pattern is their.If we cant say this is clear typology then we have to be intellectually honest and not use any typology at all.In fact we know that John is not really Elijah the Thibite but only a type of Elijah with the same Spirit and Power Luke 1:17
I can say when asked what is the greatest revelation I have got from the Bible (except that Jesus is Lord )without hestation is that Mt Carmel is a Typology of Pentecost.
Two of the great passages are actually the same.It always amazes me.

I have run out of time to talk about Elisha i will do that in the 3rd Part after you have digested the first two and you have time to reply and discuss if you want Julius or any one else.I have been as systematic as I could.
Yours Staff

 2016/1/13 22:17Profile

Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2403

 Re: Despising of the saints and Israel

Many believe, including myself, that a greater despising of the saints and the Church leading to a eventual persecution is likely to come about also because of the Church's standing with Israel during the final stages of the last days. Not standing with Israel for what they are now but whatthey eventually will be. The key is belieivng for a redeemed Jacob before that transforming redemption takes place and Jacob becomes Israel. Any reading of the Hebrew prophets from a literal perspective reveals that the final stages of this age will be characterized by a growing agitation among the nations because of the threat that the issue of Israel poses to world peace and stability(Zech 12:2-3,14:1-4). As God allows Israel to be squeezed and sheared of much it currently relies upon, God will allow Israel to be subjected to the hypocritical worldly double standard for behavior even now being imposed on it. As the world sees prophetic events unfolding the hearts of men in the nations and the Church will be sifted and tested as to what they believe regarding the legitimacy and immutability of God's word regardless of the passage of time. Unfolding prophetic events, completely in line with the predictions of the Hebrew prophets and Christ Himself, will leave the nations and the Church without excuse as they will have been presented beforehand with a pure and clear prophetic testimony. Under final chastisement, Israel will again be driven into the wilderness of the nations (Rev 12:13-15) and there hopefully they will meet a prophetically knowledgeble and prepared church already sheared of its own strength and presumptions and forced into the wilderness through persecution (Rev 12:16-17). God's final appeal to Israel will be a appeal in the wilderness through the mouth and witness of a martyr church prepared to lay down its own life on behalf of seeking Gentiles and Israel (Rev 12:11) and who has been brought by the Lord unto loving not its own life even unto death. Staggering events await the nations and the church. And Christ will return to the nation He ascended from and promised to return to.

David Winter

 2016/1/16 12:07Profile


by staff on 2016/1/13 20:32:27

The Bible says in Malachi behold I will send Elijah the Prophet before the great and terrible day of the Lord.
He will restore......
Malachi 4:5

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Malachi 3:1 is talking about John Baptist. Keep reading as the Scriptures will explain.

Matt 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Jesus said this prophecy about Elijah was talking about John the Baptist.
Matt 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Why Elijah? Why not David or Eli or Enoch or Moses?

First, God predicted John’s work as being like that of Elijah (Luke 1:17). Second, he dressed like Elijah (2 Kings 1:8 andMatthew 3:4). Third, like Elijah, John the Baptist preached in the wilderness (Matthew 3:1). Fourth, both men preached a message of repentance. Fifth, both men withstood kings and had high-profile enemies (1 Kings 18:17 and Matthew 14:3).

He came in the form of John the Baptist agreed?

Elijah did not come back in the form of John the Baptist, and Elijah was used as a metaphorical image of what John would be like in his ministry.

John made the way ready for Christ like it was prophesised
What did he do?
A:He preached that the Messiah was about to come in the wilderness and all Judea and the surrounds went out to see and hear him. Everyone came under his ministry. Mark 1:5
B:He baptized all the apostles: We know that for a few reasons but the definite proof is that Peter said so in Acts 1 21-26

He did not baptize Paul. Here is what Paul mentioned about baptism.

1Co_1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co_1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co_1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Co_1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

Being baptized by John does not make the Apostles “come under his ministry”. The apostles are not under John. They are under Christ.

Eph_2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

No mention of John the Baptist.

C: All the 12 apostles came under his ministry we know that from the above two statements

You are really reaching here in order to create a doctrine. You can say that the apostles were ministered baptism by John, but after that they did not remain under John. In fact, they were never under John at all.
D:Then Jesus volunteered to come under his ministry even though John did not want him, too.

Jesus asked to be baptized by John. When you say, “Come under his ministry”, you make it sound like Jesus was putting himself under John’s authority.

John reluctantly Baptized Jesus Matthew 3-13 -17 Jesus ministry began the moment as he was baptised and John was a witness of the Holy Spirit descending and alighting on Jesus. Jesus ministry lasted 3 1/2 years.

Yes, but let’s be clear. John did not start the ministry of Jesus. God the Father by the Holy Spirit gets the credit.


E John ministered to Herod( a type Anti Christ)as Herod liked to listen to him.Mark 6:20
F:The wicked woman Herodias asks for John The Baptist Head and gets it.Matthew 14:7we can say John was persecuted and Martyred for his faith)
G:The time of Pentecost arrives,theirs the upper room and Peter stands up and speaks and says that we need to get the number of Apostles back up to 12 lets elect someone that was with them from the baptism of John The Baptist. So the two things that had to happen before Pentecost
A:The Twelve had to be restored
B:The person elected had to have come under John’s Baptism

I would also like to bring out that John did not baptize in the name of Jesus Christ.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Again, Paul was never baptized by John the Baptist and yet is one of the greatest apostles. There is some interesting discussion regarding whether Peter got ahead of the Lord through a lack of spiritual understanding in casting lots to choose two men and THEN praying about the final one. I wonder if Peter would have done the same thing after he was baptized in the Holy Spirit?

I don’t think you have convinced me that there is something extra special about John’s baptism and definitely, no apostle is under John's authority.

Again, John was a metaphorical Elijah.

Transfiguration of Jesus - Matt. 17:1-8; Mk. 9:2-8; Lk. 9:28-36
Jesus took Peter, James and John up to a high mountain, and Jesus was transfigured into a spiritual form where His face radiated like the sun and His garments were white as light. Moses, appeared with Him as well as Elijah. Moses received the law in the Old Covenant and Elijah was one of the favorite prophets of the Jews and was later taken into heaven in a chariot of fire.

Finally, after Jesus explained it to the disciples, they understood that Elijah (Elias) had come (John the Baptist). See Matt 17:13, below.

Matt 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Matt 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Matt 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Peter, James and John were being given a visual object lesson on the mount of transfiguration that tied the old covenant together with the new covenant, and allowed them to recognize that the promised death of Jesus was to be the victory that allowed for His glorious resurrection and spiritual continuance of life in a spiritual kingdom, (not a physical kingdom).

Coming down from the mountain, Jesus told the three disciples not to broadcast what they had seen until after He had risen from the dead. Despite a glimpse of the meaning of resurrection in the transfiguration, they still had many questions concerning the implications of Jesus' resurrection, many of which were not answered until later.

They were also curious about Elijah's presence in the transfiguration, for they had been taught in their Jewish religious instruction, in accord with Malachi 4:5,6, that Elijah would come as a forerunner of the Messiah. Believing that Jesus was the Messiah, it now seemed that Elijah had come in the transfiguration after the advent of the Messiah. Jesus explained that Elijah had already come as a forerunner in the form of John the Baptist (Matt. 11:14). John the Baptist was a prophet who suffered and died, so they should not think it strange or out of order that the Messiah should suffer and die in order to accomplish what God wanted to do. And, this is exactly what happened to Jesus. He suffered and died.

I will go work on part 2, now.

 2016/1/16 13:51


by staff on 2016/1/13 22:17:39

Hi Julius 21
Part 2
Why did Elijah have to come back not David or Moses or Jeremiah etc?

This one is a bit easier to answer. Elijah did not come back. John the Bapist was not Elijah reincarnated. John the Baptist's ministry resembled that of Elijah calling people to repentance.

2Kings 1:8 And they answered him, He was an hairy man, and girt with a girdle of leather about his loins. And he said, It is Elijah the Tishbite.

There was no doubt that the people who saw and heard John regarded him as a prophet from God. He spoke like a prophet, warning of divine judgment and calling people to repentance. In appearance and style he was like the prophet Elijah, "a hairy man with a leather girdle bound about his loins" (II Kings 1:8). He survived by eating locusts and honey collected from the rocks in the desert country.

Many confuse the metaphorical in the OT with being literal.

 2016/1/16 14:41

Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1952


Hi Julius
Jesus confirmed that John The Baptist was Elijah that was to come.Are you saying otherwise?Luke 1:17 says he came in the Spirit and Power of Elijah.

Their is no such thing as reincarnation in the bible so of course he wasnt.
Yes One of the common things John and Elijah had in common was that they called people to repentance.
If you accept that as I do.
Do you accept that John and Elijah had these things in common as well?
Here are some of the other Common things:

A connection to something that lasted 3 1/2 years
Both wore Hairy garments
Both poured water over 12 stones(twelve Apostles)
Both poured water over the Sacrifice
Both caused by fire to fall from Heaven
Both came up against a wicked Queen
Both came up against a wicked king
Both were fed not by the normal way
Both had all go out to see them
Both ministered in the wilderness
Both ministered at the same place at the Jordon River

Phrased another way why was it Elijah(in the form of John the Baptist) to come to bring the people to repentance
not Moses or David or any other prophet.
Why did John not come in the "Spirit and Power of Moses"
Or in the "Spirit and power of Daniel"?
So you havent answered why it had to be Elijah as their were many prophets who preached repentance.
Why is Elijah the model and Not them.
Yours Staff

 2016/1/16 19:21Profile

Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1952


Hi Julius
Why Elijah
Why did God predict Johns minstry would be like Elijah?
Why did God have Malachi predict that Elijah would come?
Why did he not say Behold I will send my servant Samuel before the great and terrible day?

Im agreed about transfiguration but it doesnt answer the question.
It is clear I think to both of Us that Jesus saw Elijah in the form of John The Baptist.I agree totally.
But why had John to come in his form is what I am asking?
(other than it is predicted in Malachi)
Why was other forms of prophets like Jonah not predicted and sent?

Yours Staff

 2016/1/16 19:33Profile

Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1952


Hi Julius,

John the baptist did not baptise Paul as Paul was not part or never was part of the Twelve Apostles.He was a full Apostle but not one of the Twelve.Although Paul was an Apostle born out of time he was not one of the twelve.
Jesus put himself under John The Baptist Ministry,John tried to refuse but Jesus Insisted.The Twelve Apostles all came under both John The Baptist Ministry(Authority) as Peter points out in Acts and Jesus did as well.
Jesus for the purpose of fulfilling Mt Carmel where the sacrifice was immersed in water got Baptised and not for the sake of sin.
Their is no doubt that in Acts that Peter spoke under revelation of the Holy Spirit just prior to Pentecost and their is (no Scripture to show what you just said)
What Peter said was agreed by everyone that was there.
A The person elected had to be from the Ministry of John The Baptist
B:Peter also said that their had to be a 12 apostles.What he meant was like Elijah on Mt Carmel the fire woulndt fall except their was Twelve stones in Place.
The proof was in the pudding,here are these scriptures in a row without the Paragraph break.The Next thing recorded after Peter had got the structure back in its correct position (ie 12 stones that were baptised by Elijah in the form of John the Baptist) was that the Fire Fell

20 “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms:

“‘May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,’[e]


“‘May another take his place of leadership.’[f]

21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”

23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.
2 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.

Peter had got revelation from God before the Holy Spirit Baptism when he called Jesus the Messiah and Jesus confirmed that God had given him that revelation.
Peter had already been sifted by the devil and restored by Jesus.So its a slur on Peter to say that he didnt know what he was at in this case and on top of all of that it just makes logical sense.Every where in the old testament we see the importance of 12 not 11.
If their was nothing extra special about John The Baptists Baptism why did Jesus insist he had to go through it.Jesus and Apostles thought it was special and All Judea and Jerusalem felt it was special because it says they all travelled out to see John.
John then pointed the Apostles to Jesus saying his Baptism was greater which it was.John had to make the way ready for Jesus and part the making ready was that the Apostles had to be Baptised and importantly looking for the Messiah which they were constantly.
When Jesus arrived on the scene the Apostles were ready to follow him,made ready by ELijah in the form of John
but all Judea,Jerusalem and the Surrounds came under his Ministry including Jesus and the Apostles.

Even looking at that Scripture again read the last line of the Acts 1 and The first 2 lines of Acts 2.Take out the paragragh and verse numbers

Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.
When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting

Can you anyone now look at that and honestly say it is a mistake,that they arent related?You would be saying three major coicidences happened 1.Peter blundered(no scriptural evidence for it although he blundered before and a little after with Paul they were recorded as a blunder)
Also the very next thing Peter does after being restored on the Beach by Jesus is to blunder?Come on..
2.John the Baptist(Elijah type) was mentioned as having a connection with the Apostles just prior to them nominating a twelveth Apostle and the fire falling
3.God recorded these three verses in a row together

It is clear that Peter,the Eleven Apostles and all else gathered Mary and Mary Magdeline possibly and the rest of the 120 knew that the Twelve Apostles or Twelve Stones had to be restored just like Elijah restored on Mt Carmel.
It also Clear that Jesus came under the Authority of John, in humility he came below what he should have so he could fulfill scripture,

Yours Staff

 2016/1/16 20:37Profile



Jesus explained why He was baptized by John.
Matt 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

I already answered why Jesus likened John's ministry to Elijah's. And for those reasons it could not be likened to Moses or David or Daniel.

It was not a slur against Peter by saying that he lacked spiritual understanding to cast lots. He also lacked spiritual understanding after confessing Jesus was the Christ when he said that HE would not have to suffer. He again lacked spiritual understanding when he wanted to build a temple to Elijah and Moses on the mount of transfiguration and he lacked spiritual understanding in Galatia when he practiced dissimulation amongst the Gentile believers for which he was rebuked by Paul.

So, no that was not a slur.

I don't know if Matthias was supposed to be the 12th apostle. I don't think anyone knows. There is a camp that takes it by faith and there is a camp that believes Paul, the apostle born out of due time, was the 12th as he was personally chosen by Jesus Christ, just like Jesus Christ personally chose the others.

1Co_15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

 2016/1/16 21:01

Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1952


Hi Julius
Yes thats what he said "to fulfill all righteousness"
He was fulfilling something that was right to do.
What was he fulfilling?The righeousness he was fulfilling was prophetic typology.Pour Water over me John because Elijah poured water over the sacrifice and so should you to make it right.

Yes you did answer but you didnt answer what I asked.
You answered that Jesus likend John to Elijahs Ministry
I agree with you.
You stated the facts that it was prophesied that Johns Ministry would be like Elijah and That Jesus said it was like Elijah.Im agreeing with you.
All correct but Im asking a different question.My Question is Why should it be Elijah to come in the first place or what is it that Elijah is able to do that Moses or Aaron or Jeremiah are not?
Peter and the 120 knew that Matthias was meant to be the 12th.How am I meant to take anything Peter had to say seriously if I cant take that?Or James he was there too.
If they being leaders of the Church,pillars are wrong in this issue qouting scriptures and it isnt pointed out that they blundered like it was when they blundered before,How am I to read any off their other writings and take it as Gospel.

All of the Twelve Apostles were Choosen by Jesus after they had been first Baptised By John not before.

What Paul was saying that he saw Jesus out of due time just like the other Apostles but after his translation.
What about the list of typology between John and Elijah other that they both called Israel to repent?
Also what about the thee verses in a row was that an accident did God have an off day?

The only other guy I can see that is on SI that has any Sermons similar is Jacob Prasch,I couldnt find this one on SI
Elijah The Man Who Could Make It Rain

I had a look at it,it drags on a bit and he starts preaching about Elijah 15 to 20 mins in.It doesnt show the correllation between Mt Carmel and Pentecost but talks about the Spirit of Elijah and why its important.
He believes you can loose your salvation,not sure about his tribulation views etc.
Yours Staff

 2016/1/16 22:23Profile

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