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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is the Church Israel?

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passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 742


 Re:

The book of Hebrews is only a part of the bible. The declarations of God about Israel are written in many books of the bible.

The patriarchs were God fearing personalities, I don't think they really cared for any land neither physical or spiritual, but God in His pleasure had given them promises and God will not neglect any of them.

Any christian who has attained maturity will not really care for any land, being with God is more than enough for him.


 2015/12/6 14:18Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Maimonides

RE: ///It seems that many Christians have abandoned viewing the Scriptures from the historic Christian perspective and are now interputing those scriptures more from (what I am finding in my research thus far ) seems to be from a
Maimonides perspective.///

“The Christians are idol worshipers and Sunday is their religious holiday, therefore in Eretz Israel we may not trade with them on Thursday and Friday of every week, and needless to say on Sunday, which is forbidden [for trade with Christians] everywhere.” - Maimonides

speaking about Muslims Maimonides states :

“These Ishmaelites are not idol worshippers in the least, and [paganism] has been long since cut off from their mouths and their hearts, and they worship the singular God properly and without any blemish.”

“It is permitted to teach the commandments to Christians and to attract them to our religion, and it is not permitted to do the same with the Ishmaelites, - Maimonides

From what I have been reading of there own writings it does not appear that they are very interested in Proselyting the Christians but in judaizing Christianity.
That seems to be how they understood the quote above of Maimonides to be implying.


I find alarming that : "It seems that many Christians have abandoned viewing the Scriptures (concerning eschatology) from the historic Christian perspective and are now interputing those scriptures more from (what I am finding in my research thus far ) seems to be from a
Maimonides perspective."

Maimonides believed that Islam and Christianity was Gods way of spreading the Torah through out the entire world.
He believed that this was preparing the world for the Messianic age, and exceptance of there mashiach

I find this very alarming

I am interested in any (clear)writings by any Christian/christian before Maimonides (12th century) who did not believe that the Church Jew/Gentile was the true recipient of the promises.

add: some things for clairity


 2015/12/6 14:51Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1522
Germany NRW

 Re:

Julius21 wrote
//There are some links I posted that I just was not informed enough about and while they did have some truth, I did not agree with everything, but I believe if anyone reads the following, (if they are teachable) they will see the truth of God's Word. I can't imagine anyone on SI not agreeing with the following message.//

Julius, now you continue to bombard us with this Stephen Sizer stuff.
I thought you regretted posting this ?

 2015/12/6 15:21Profile









 Re:

I didn't say what I regretted posting and I am gratified to learn that no one here ascribes to Christian Zionism. You obviously can see the dangers of it. So far, his book on Road to Armageddon is right on and is in line with scripture.

 2015/12/6 16:52
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


  T. Austin-Sparks : Jesus Came to Form a New Heavenly Israel

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=21422

 2015/12/6 17:29Profile









 CHRISTIAN ZIONISM and satanic theological error known as Replacement Theology

CHRISTIAN ZIONISM (and satanic theological error known as Replacement Theology)

Tens of thousands of churches have a committed belief in the importance of standing with Israel and blessing the Jewish people. The verse most often referred to as their biblical mandate is Genesis 12:3 in which God tells Abraham “I will bless those who bless you and I will curse those who curse you and in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.”

Since the birth of the State of Israel in 1948 the theological error known as Replacement Theology has begun to decline and increasing is a theology of Christian Zionism that understands the importance of God’s everlasting covenant with Abraham and the nation he would birth.

However, just as the term “Zionism” has been turned into a negative word by Israel’s enemies, so “Christian Zionism” is under attack and often misrepresented in the media and in some public discourse. For this reason, the ICEJ’s articles and monographs defining and clarifying the beliefs of Christian supporters of Israel and placing their “love for Israel” within its proper biblical context are proving invaluable.

Christian Zionists
"Zionism, [is] the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel, advocated, from its inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions, left and right, religious and secular, joined to form the Zionist movement and worked together toward these goals. Disagreements led to rifts, but ultimately, the common goal of a Jewish state in its ancient homeland was attained. The term "Zionism" was coined in 1890 by Nathan Birnbaum." (Jewish Virtual Library).

If Zionism is the belief in the Jewish people's right to return to their homeland, then a Christian Zionist should simply be defined as a Christian who supports the Jewish people's right to return to their homeland. Under this broad and simple definition, many Christians would qualify no matter what their reasons are for this support. Just as Jews of all persuasions formed the Zionist movement then Christians of all persuasion can also fall within this broad definition of a Christian Zionist.

For this very reason, a myriad of answers may be given by a Christian when questioned about their support of Israel. Answers can include political, historical, and/or religious reasons.

Theology of Christian Zionism
The actual theology of Christian Zionism, also known as Biblical Zionism, supports the right of the Jewish people to return to their homeland on scriptural grounds. The biblical foundation for Christian Zionism is found in God's Covenant with Abraham. It was in this covenant that God chose Abraham to birth a nation through which He could redeem the world, and to do this He bequeathed them a land on which to exist as this chosen nation.

Christian Zionism is confirmed throughout the Hebrew Scriptures. The major and minor prophets consistently confirmed this national calling on Israel, promised her future restoration to the land after a period of exile, and spoke of her spiritual renewal and redemption bringing light to the world.

Christian Zionism differs with Replacement Theology which teaches that the special relationship that Israel had with her God in terms of her national destiny and her national homeland has been lost because of her rejection of Jesus as Messiah, and therefore the Church has become the new Israel. The Church has then inherited all the blessings promised to Israel but the judgments and curses still conveniently remain over the Jewish people.

Instead, Christian Zionism teaches from the scriptures that God's covenant with Abraham is still valid today. There remains a national destiny over the Jewish people and her national homeland is her everlasting possession in fulfillment of God's plans and purposes for her. The New Testament scriptures not only affirm the Abrahamic covenant, but they confirm the historical mission of Israel and that Israel's gifts and calling are irrevocable.

Thus, Christian Zionism is not based on prophecy or end-time events. Most Christian Zionists would agree, however, that Israel's reemergence on the world's scene, in fulfillment of God's promises to her, indicate that other biblically-predicted events will follow.

Rev. Malcolm Hedding
ICEJ Spokesman

 2015/12/6 17:41









 Re: CHRISTIAN ZIONISM and satanic theological error known as Replacement Theology

Very good read, proudpapa.

T. Austin-Sparks presents the Church as Spiritual Israel very well.

"Then you notice that the old Israel was built upon the twelve sons of Jacob. Twelve is the number of representation. Those twelve sons of Jacob represented the whole nation. Jesus chose twelve disciples. They were a representative company of the new Israel. Moses had seventy elders that went up into the mount with him. Jesus chose seventy apostles and sent them out two by two.

Israel of old had a tabernacle. John says, "The Word became flesh, and Tabernacled among us." Jesus is the Tabernacle of the new Jerusalem. It is in Him that we meet God. And in Him all the spiritual meaning of the old tabernacle is come to fulfillment. Israel of old had a high priest. The New Testament teaches us that Jesus is the High Priest of the new Israel. Israel had the great sacrifice, the whole burnt offering. Jesus has become THE GREAT SACRIFICE. Israel had a great altar. The Cross of the Lord Jesus is THE GREAT ALTAR of the new Israel. And so we could go on. But, I think, we have said enough to indicate that Jesus came to form a new heavenly Israel."

He closes with this:

"Dear friends, the deepest reality about a child of God is the most wonderful thing in this universe. The deepest thing is this, that there is something there in that life which only God could do. No man, or number of men, can make a child of God. There is nothing in this universe that can make a child of God. Only God can make a child of God. So that this new spiritual heavenly Israel is something which in its very beginning is on supernatural ground. We are a wonderful lot of people. We do not look like very much. Of course, I do not mean to insult you, I include myself. We do not look like very much. In this world, we are not very much. But God has in this world the most wonderful thing that He has done. He has a people which are of the result of His own unique Divine work. That is the beginning of the new Israel.

You see, we are right back with Abraham and Isaac as the beginning of this thing. God has brought that over into this new Israel. That is the beginning. Oh, that the Lord would give us spiritual understanding about this. I had thought that I might be able to say something about how true this is of the Christian life after its beginning. But if the Lord wills, I have got another evening tomorrow, and we can go on then.

Oh, but we have said enough surely to make it very clear that Christ is doing a very wonderful thing. Our name is Israel. That means a prince with God. May the Lord help us to live up to our name, recognize the great dignity that has been put upon us, and to understand the wonderful thing that He has done in us. The Lord bless you."

 2015/12/6 17:48









 Re:

Juli said

"I didn't say what I regretted posting and I am gratified to learn that no one here ascribes to Christian Zionism."

That is a outright lie. Most of the Christians here are Christian Zionists but
you lie without any conviction. Reminds me of someone......

 2015/12/6 17:48
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

I have been asking myself, why has Greg allowed this continual purpose driven agenda from Julius to continue. There has been numerous pastes from anti-semites, conspiracy theories and direct links to outside forums and blogs without any word or restriction.

Greg, do you know this person personally and are reluctant to stop him? Of course I don't know this is true and I am not claiming it is, but I am just saying it is the only thing that I can think is a reason why it is allowed to continue. Otherwise I am at a loss to understand. Others in the past were strongly told not to continue in pushing an agenda and if they continued they were asked to leave.
Maybe if Julius is a man he will reveal his identity if he wants to be the dominant poster on here....that will be a start!

I know I started this post a few weeks back, but I just went through the scriptures to show that Israel always means Israel. NO ONE has shown where anything I wrote is wrong. Yes they posted alternative views and teachings of men, but they have not clearly shown why what I put forward is wrong.

proudpapa, you really are setting up a straw man. No one here or any other person I know would suggest following a Jewish rabbi from centuries ago (or any other age).....well actually one Rabbi, we would follow Rabbi Messiah Jesus! I wonder at your purpose in going down this route....beats me!


_________________
Dave

 2015/12/6 17:55Profile









 Re:

Dave,

If Greg would like to close it, it is fine by me. I don't think I will be posting anymore, anyway. I believe enough material has been presented to dispute your claim.

T. Austin Sparks (link by proudpapa) clearly shows the Church is Spiritual Israel
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=21422

And Charles Alexander clearly shows the same.
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=22430

You did not respond to any of their articles. Were you going to? As you can see from these other brothers it is not about me. It is about what the Bible says regarding the Church as Spiritual Israel.

I hope you will respond to Sparks and Alexander's writings.

 2015/12/6 18:02





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