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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Is It Possible to Reform the Religious System?

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Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
@ Oracio

When it comes to the religious system, I don't tell people to stay or go. I believe every person has to be fully persuaded in their own mind as to where they are to be. When I left the religious system, I left in peace but I had to wait before the Lord for Him to get that system out of me. I'm not going into details but it's a real process and one that I continue in because there are “things” that show up from time to time. I do realize that there are saints that can be in the religious system and that system not be in them but I wasn't one of them. So for me it's really about people knowing if they are a part of God's Church through His son Jesus Christ and not just part of a “church”. Also knowing where you are supposed to be because that is what the Lord would have not man.

I've been Saved for more than a minute and in all honesty I can't recall ever meeting a Christian who mentioned to me that people are unsaved for staying in the system. The closest I've come is in regards to a particular religious system but I'm not getting into that here. I will say though even with that, I've never heard of anyone trying to revoke someone's Salvation. Have you ever asked those who have an anti-church sentiment why they feel the way they do? Seeing that you're labeling Christians as “traditional church Christians”, what are you calling those of us Christians who don't go to “church”? I'm just trying to understand...



Hi Jasmine, you’re first paragraph above was a real encouragement to read. There’s nothing there I would disagree with. I’ll do my best to answer the questions in your second paragraph.

You wrote, “I've been Saved for more than a minute and in all honesty I can't recall ever meeting a Christian who mentioned to me that people are unsaved for staying in the system. The closest I've come is in regards to a particular religious system but I'm not getting into that here. I will say though even with that, I've never heard of anyone trying to revoke someone's Salvation.”

My answer: I was not referring to meeting these Christians in person but rather reading their writings and seeing their online “ministries”. I won’t provide the links to them here because they may be a stumbling block to some. These types of Christians and “ministries” are indeed out there. They go to extremes in railing against the “system” and exhorting believers to "come out of Babylon", with threatenings of perishing in hell should they refuse to “come out of her” after being warned.

You wrote, “Have you ever asked those who have an anti-church sentiment why they feel the way they do?”

My answer: I do know and understand why many feel as they do regarding traditional churches. The reasons vary, from being personally hurt by a certain church to simply seeing corruption in general. I’ve heard several reasons in person from many Christians. And again, the sentiment varies in degrees.

You wrote, “Seeing that you're labeling Christians as “traditional church Christians”, what are you calling those of us Christians who don't go to “church”? I'm just trying to understand...”

My answer: I choose to use the terms “traditional” or “denominational” instead of “institutional” or “religious system” because the latter come across as very derogatory and offensive to many believers. I personally don’t like those terms myself. Those terms seem to come across as saying that absolutely all traditional, denominational churches are of the devil, completely apostate, when nothing can be further from the truth.

As far as a term for those who don’t “go to church”, I haven’t thought of a decent one other than “anti-traditional”. I’ve also heard the term “out of church Christians” which seems not that bad to use. If you think of a good one you prefer please let me know :). And the only reason I use any terms is because it saves time and space in explaining the two different positions.


_________________
Oracio

 2015/11/23 11:28Profile
Jasmine
Member



Joined: 2005/11/19
Posts: 94


 Re:

@ Oracio

Okay I see what you're saying. You're talking about websites. I've paid minimal attention to them because that's not how things happened for me. I didn't come out via the internet. It was just me and the Lord. As a matter of fact back then there really wasn't any support. I stayed pretty black and blue from getting beat up by Christians who went to “church”. But I wasn't allowed to defend myself and that kept me on my knees. In the long run it worked to my good but for a season it was very painful. What was interesting was years later some of those same people who beat me up, left out of the system themselves. Then they understood better and I was no longer considered the enemy.

Lately I've been wondering if some people have changed their minds about how they feel about leaving the religious system especially considering how some “churches” have embraced another gospel, gay marriage, politics, prosperity, etc. I wonder if those of us who left the system are still viewed negatively or are some Christians rethinking this subject?

You said, “I choose to use the terms “traditional” or “denominational” instead of “institutional” or “religious system” because the latter come across as very derogatory and offensive to many believers.”
I've never heard that before. Again is this something you read on line or is it something Christians have told you IRL? Also are you saying you believe the fellowship of the saints and the religious system are one in the same?

If there has to be labeling I just really prefer to say “Christians who go to church” and “Christians who don't go to church”. That way things just stay very simple and respectful. Although the best scenario to me would be “these men/women have been with Jesus.

 2015/11/23 22:20Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi Jasmine, regarding online interaction, I would not totally dismiss it as not being “real life” interaction. For example, you and I have been having a real life interaction on this forum, right? You and I are real live people who are sharing our real views on this topic. It is through forums like this one that I’ve partly come to understand the different sentiments of Christians who don’t like attending traditional churches. Some Christians see forums like this one as their main means of fellowship or interaction with other Christians.

Quote:
Lately I've been wondering if some people have changed their minds about how they feel about leaving the religious system especially considering how some “churches” have embraced another gospel, gay marriage, politics, prosperity, etc. I wonder if those of us who left the system are still viewed negatively or are some Christians rethinking this subject?



Yeah, from interacting in person as well as interacting and reading online, I see sentiments of Christians who attend traditional churches toward Christians who don’t attend traditional churches varying from positive to negative, probably mostly negative which I think is unfortunate.

Quote:
You said, “I choose to use the terms “traditional” or “denominational” instead of “institutional” or “religious system” because the latter come across as very derogatory and offensive to many believers.”
I've never heard that before. Again is this something you read on line or is it something Christians have told you IRL?



My answer: both.

Quote:
Also are you saying you believe the fellowship of the saints and the religious system are one in the same?


Not exactly sure what you mean there. I believe that the fellowship of the saints can be found both within traditional or denominational churches and outside of them. Like Jesus said, where two or three are gathered, whether in a building, a coffee shop, a house, a cave, etc.


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Oracio

 2015/11/23 22:48Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

I thought about something else after I posted my last post. Notice that Jesus didn't say, where one is gathered in My name. He said two or more. That's the ideal situation that we should all long for because that's God's ideal plan for us according to His Word. We weren't meant to walk this walk completely alone. That said, I understand that there are situations where there is no choice but for one to walk alone for a period of time according to providence. In that type of situation, the next best thing is to fellowship by phone if possible or online. But again, that's not God's ideal plan for us.


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Oracio

 2015/11/23 23:08Profile









 Re:

"Religious System" and "Institutional Church" are mild terms compared to "Bible speak". There is a reason people don't use Bible terminology. Bible terminology is more offensive than the non bible words men use. What would happen if people used the words in the scriptures? Maybe this is why Bible versions keep changing (to soften the words and make them more PC).

Bible terminology: Babylon, Whore, Harlot, Hireling, Wolf, Lovers of money, form of godliness, yoke of bondage, False teachers, False shepherds, False prophets, brood of vipers, white washed walls, etc., etc.

 2015/11/23 23:10
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

I hear you Julius, but the false notion that some have is that all traditional churches fit those descriptions.

That's where I completely disagree with some who don't like attending traditional churches. They discount all traditional churches as totally given over to the devil and apostasy, all over peripheral matters such as using a pulpit, having a building and pews, etc.


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Oracio

 2015/11/23 23:15Profile









 Re:

I've have never really met anyone except some Brethren people that think alll traditional churches fit those descriptions. They think what they call the "Assemblies" are the only pattern and I could not reason with them at all. Most of those descriptions I listed are for individuals. And, just like you don't know who all the people are that are of the True Church, we can't know who are all the ones of the False Church. (Matt 13 -Wheat and Tares). God knows who they are and often we do not, because we cannot see men's hearts.

If we look into the Word with an honest heart (whole heart) we will be changed but if we look into the Word with a divided heart we will only have a religious experience.

 2015/11/23 23:54
Jasmine
Member



Joined: 2005/11/19
Posts: 94


 Re:

@ Oracio

I wasn't being dismissive of on-line interaction. Its just that when I speak of IRL, I'm talking about people I spent time with face to face for years. We didn't just break bread, we stayed at each other homes. We not only prayed together, we went on retreats, and fasted together. Our children knew one another. Our relationship and conversations were not limited to a “church activity”. We were doing life together as Christians. I say that also because at the time we didn't have the internet.

So to have some of those individuals treat me like the enemy when I did leave the system was very painful. It was like a death. I'm very aware that for some the internet is their lifeline to other Christians. I also understand that there is no distance in the Spirit but for me because of where I came from, there's a difference between on line and IRL. I can't say in totality why, but there is.

Why do you believe that if we don't go to “church” that we are alone? Do you think because people go to “church” that they're not alone? From what I've observed over the years, whatever can be said about those of us who don't go to “church” the same can be said about those who do. So nobody has a monopoly on any given situation. It's just sad that some people make the assumptions that they do.

 2015/11/24 1:49Profile









 Re:

There have been many Christians, and I would include myself, that have tried to explain that the " systems," or denominations are in and of themselves unbiblical. I have never had a satisfactory answer to the question " are denominations Biblical." Another way of putting that is " was it God's design to have the priesthood divided by name and become enemies of one another?"

Now, I have had my words twisted by deliberately obtuse men who would like to change those questions and convince others that I think people in denominations are unbiblical or evil or that denominations are evil or that I oppose leadership. May God be their judge.

We can find the Lord's design for His people in John 17. Not very complicated. What Jesus spoke in that chapter will come to pass despite men. It will probably take great persecution and a counting of the cost but the process is already underway. God's children will be a witness to the gospel of the Kingdom before His coming, and then He will come...............bro Frank

 2015/11/24 1:53
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

The way I see it is many people and groups ,are just as deviceive ,and demoninational in there hearts , the brethren are just like a denomination ,,,the brethren denomination ,they hold and devide over certaint doctrine , just like other denomination ,,,,,,,,,,the idea that all religious groups are babylon and God is calling all Christian out ,is a bad interpretation of that verse,and can easily be debated so ,,,,,,,,,so deviding over a verse like that is the same thing that many other denomination ,do ,,,,

 2015/11/24 2:09Profile





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