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proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

RE:/// Hello PP, I was struck by this comment of yours and immediately Daniel came to mind. From what I can tell in Scripture he was a man of devotion and integrity from his youth and yet his prayer in Daniel chapter 9 is an amazing example and confession and repentance, even for "our fathers". How would this fit into your statement that I have quoted? ///



when I wrote : 'The correct approuch is those whom done those wicked things are not our fathers'

I am speaking of those whom have persecuted the Jews, they are not of the the true olive tree.

Why should the true olive tree identify with the thorns that where never part of it ?


 2015/10/28 11:18Profile
Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

by InTheLight on 2015/10/28 15:56:55

Quote:
The correct approuch is those whom done those wicked things are not our fathers.



Hello PP, I was struck by this comment of yours and immediately Daniel came to mind. From what I can tell in Scripture he was a man of devotion and integrity from his youth and yet his prayer in Daniel chapter 9 is an amazing example and confession and repentance, even for "our fathers". How would this fit into your statement that I have quoted?
__________________________________________________________

Yes exactly Ron! It's a cop out. The whole attitude from those who don't agree with the film has been 'It's not us true Christians, it's those Catholics!' If a Jewish person asked them, "well what about the Lutherens and other churches that promoted similar views?". Their response would be "well they are not 'real' Christians like me either."

It's no different to how most Muslims react about the Islamist terrorists. I hear them say consistently "These are not true Muslims and they don't follow the true teaching". However, even though most Muslims are not Jihadist, the problem is that their religion teaches things that promote the Jihadist agenda. The point is the same, you cannot distance the replacement theology (I use this term in the same way others feel OK to use the term Jewish roots) from the effect it has had on some to use this as a justification of anti-Semitism....and we should acknowledge that!


_________________
Dave

 2015/10/28 11:29Profile
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 724
Texas

 A word of caution


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2015/10/28 11:59Profile









 Re:

Ron, Dave,

Do you hold all Muslims responsible for extremist Islam and require an apology from them? I didn't think so.

Yet, you hold your brothers and sisters responsible for heinous treatment of the Jewish people and require them to admit their culpability and apologize.

I have spoken with Muslims that say they are sorry for what these Muslim extremists have done and try to explain to me that the Islam they follow does not teach this extremism. Whether that is correct or not, I accept their explanation. In the same way, I have spoken to Jews and expressed sorrow for what was done in the name of Christ and Christianity and I was never made to feel personally culpable by Jews and they never blamed me. I have even told Muslims I don't support the maiming and killing of their people and they are smart enough to know I was not involved. No Christian should support warring in the flesh.

The Jews and Muslims I have spoken with have been much more generous of heart than this video had been to their own brothers.

I am so glad that there are many stories of "Righteous Gentiles", that I can reference when talking with Jews. It makes it easier to talk to them about Christ.

This movie is reprehensible in that it does not distinguish between true Christians and extremists and never mentions any examples of the "Righteous Gentiles". The movie is now out there for all to see and these men and one woman missed a giant opportunity in my opinion.

I still think something else is going on with this movie against Christianity. They just can't be so clueless.

 2015/10/28 12:00
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 724
Texas

 Re: A word of caution

Certainly it is a noble aspiration to remember the people of Israel and the benefit we as Gentiles have derived from their legacy and covenant, but let's not forget that "some" of what has befallen to them as a people is a result of God's judgment upon them. In fact, God Himself stated that because they did not remain in His covenant he "neglected" them. The Greek word means He did not provide benevolent care for them.

They are still loved "because of the patriarchs" but they are and have been a stiff necked and gain saying people who have been offered more and refused more than any other people on the earth.

God Himself has poured out on them a spirit of stupor and God can and will awaken them and grant them repentance for His own sovereign purpose.

So, even as we soberly consider our own culpability in any neglect or mistreatment of the people of Israel, don't forget that God Himself has treated them as severely as any group we can accuse.

To whom much is given, much is required. Israel is a servant who knew the master's will and deserved a more severe chastening. Paul was right in "wishing" that he could be accursed from CHRIST if it would result in salvation for Israel, but he could not and neither can we. We can hope that our joy in the Messiah will provoke some of them to jealousy. May we continue to hope that God will grant them repentance so that they will turn towards the Lord so that He will remove the veil that lies upon their heart.

There are consequences to refusing God's favor and persistently refusing His attempts to turn us back to Him. Much of what the Jewish people have experienced is related to their refusal of God's mercy.

When we make the accusation "why did the church not intervene when they knew what was going on" - what is the implication towards God? God saw every atrocity and every murder. He was more aware than any group that has been mentioned and He chose His own course of action. He had knowledge of all that was happening and power to stop it......?????

If men are wrong for doing nothing - what of God?

Mak


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2015/10/28 12:15Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 

What happens if they rebuild the temple
and a man with super natural abilities says he is there messiah and they all believe him and he brings in global peace and makes Israel a place of prominence ?

Are we going to follow him ?

 2015/10/28 12:25Profile









 Re:

It is quite possible Christian Zionists and others will be deceived.

Mark 13:22

For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Good word Mak. That is pretty much what MessianicGoodNews.com says, too. It is scriptural.

 2015/10/28 12:44
yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 562


 Re:

InTheLight:

Quote:
Hello PP, I was struck by this comment of yours and immediately Daniel came to mind. From what I can tell in Scripture he was a man of devotion and integrity from his youth and yet his prayer in Daniel chapter 9 is an amazing example and confession and repentance, even for "our fathers". How would this fit into your statement that I have quoted?


I read the relevant verses in Daniel 9. Though there is acknowledgement of sins shared by all Israelites, I don't see Daniel repenting on behalf of others.

The Bible is clear on individual culpability for sin (Deuteronomy 24:16, Ezekiel 18:20).


Proudpapa:
Quote:
What happens if they rebuild the temple
and a man with super natural abilities says he is there messiah and they all believe him and he brings in global peace and makes Israel a place of prominence ?

Are we going to follow him ?


I believe John 5:43 is a prophecy - Jesus says, "I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive."

 2015/10/28 12:46Profile
yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 562


 Re:

Heydave:

Quote:
The whole attitude from those who don't agree with the film has been 'It's not us true Christians, it's those Catholics!' If a Jewish person asked them, "well what about the Lutherens and other churches that promoted similar views?". Their response would be "well they are not 'real' Christians like me either.


You are presupposing an extremely Western-centric view of the church. However, the body of believers is extremely diverse, composed of every tribe and every tongue - not everyone can relate to a Western denominational background. It is not fair to demand them to apologize; instead, you would find many who have had a heart for the Jews (example: the "Back to Jerusalem" movement, which originated in China).

Ultimately, the identity of believers is not in any denomination or local church group, but *in* Jesus Christ. He is my Lord and my brother, who has placed me in His body - the true Israel.

 2015/10/28 13:04Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by yuehan on 2015/10/28 13:04:03

Ultimately, the identity of believers is not in any denomination or local church group, but *in* Jesus Christ. He is my Lord and my brother, who has placed me in His body - the true Israel.



Yuehan, that is an excellent statement and the film missed a big opportunity to convey that.

Almost, as if the "Christians" narrating the film are somehow stuck in the physical realm (seeing all things as only earthly), not understanding the spiritual nature of the Church, the New Covenant and the Last Days.

 2015/10/28 13:14





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