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 Re:

What is interesting about the film is how it slanders Christians and Christianity and gives Rome a big pass.

Sure, many things have been done in Christ's name, but hardly any references in this video. Just general statements. They mention Justin Martyr, Luther, and then mainly just general comments, always about the "Christian Church" and "Christians", ignoring the overwhelming amount of information available today regarding Rome being chummy with Islam.

In this film, particularly, you would think they would mention that and also would mention Rome's designs on occupying Jerusalem.

Do I think they have another motive? You bet I do!

True believers have always had to live with their Name and their Church and their Savior being hijacked by religion and they will have to continue to live with it. It's just ironic that while this film was trying to correct wrong thinking about Jewish people at the same time it was perpetuating wrong thinking about Christians and the Church of Jesus Christ.

I applaud them for making the point of Jewish suffering and bringing home how the whole world is lining up against them.

HRM has a major disrespect for Christianity (Romans, Galatians and Hebrews) and you can't help but wonder what else is behind this video because they show absolutely no examples of Christian love towards the Jews. NONE!

And they continue on their website for this film.
http://www.covenantandcontroversy.com/in-writing/2015/7/30/the-impasse

"That Nazi politicians ever had a theological father to quote in support of their murderous and demonic atrocities alone is enough to indict Christian history and require investigation. It is not enough to say the Church has progressed or matured beyond Luther’s repulsive admonitions in The Jews and their Lies—the Bride is not so white to make such audacious claims. We have to ask why centuries allowed the anti-Judaism of Saint Augustine, the anti-Semitism of Luther, and now makes room for the anti-Zionism of Sizer, Wright, Chapman and Burge."

This is so ridiculous. Singling out men, including Hitler and indicting the entire Christian church as adhering to Luther and Augustine. Did you catch where they elevated Luther by calling him a "theological father". Nice.

"why centuries allowed the anti-Judaism of Saint Augustine, the anti-Semitism of Luther" and I have no idea who Sizer, Wright, Chapman and Burge are.

Hello, the real Enemy is Satan. And because of the Babylonian false church, this will continue.

The question is: Will you continue to indict the entire Church of God through tactics of "guilt by association"?

 2015/10/27 13:00
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

PP, you have not seen the film and have misled. This film has NOTHING to do with the Hebrew Roots movement. In fact Michael Brown speaks against the extremes of the Hebrew Roots movement (not on the film), but in general. None of the speakers on the film mention anything remotely about what the Hebrew roots movement advocates.

It is undeniable that the roots of Christianity is Jewish, but that is NOT the Hebrew roots movement.

Please refrain from slandering what you don't know.


_________________
Dave

 2015/10/27 12:31Profile









 Re: Julius21

Quotes and personal comments are now posted in new thread. I welcome any and all comments.

 2015/10/27 12:25
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Julius21

I also want to also express my appreciation of your review of the film.

I look forward to your transcript of notes

I am well aware of the Jewish roots agenda and the tactics that they are useing in trying to revolutionize christianity.

Several families that have left our fellowship have got caught up with this movement in different degrees.


 2015/10/27 11:47Profile
Jeremy221
Member



Joined: 2009/11/7
Posts: 1532


 Re: Covenant and controversy - The great rage

Thank you for posting this. When it was originally shared with the link on Vimeo, I was disappointed because I was unable to purchase it. I am very thankful that they were able to make it availabe for free.

I have listened to/watched part of this and it has been a blessing. It sounds very similar to the way that Art Katz taught on this topic. I noticed the name Scott Volk, is brother related to the one who worked with Art on "The Spirit of Truth?"

I hope all parts of this work will become available for everyone.

EDIT: Scott Volk relates how his uncle, Paul, was disinherited by his father when he became a believer.

 2015/10/27 11:04Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by Heydave on 2015/10/27 4:45:42

Well Julius, I am disappointed but not really surprised at your reaction.

Why have you set yourself up as THE impartial reviewer of this film as if your synopsis is one to be accepted by those who have not even watch it? Everyone has their own bias based on their own particular preconceptions.



Dave, I am just showing my review of the film. I never said I am impartial in fact I will admit I am not partial to Catholicism and I am biased towards the Scripture as I understand them and so are you. In this film they give Catholicism a big bye and they provide no scriptural reasons for all the suffering, they make it seem completely a human thing. I want other people to take the time to watch this video and post their reviews. In the posting of many reviews we will find a balance. Please don't rely just on mine as I admit I am biased. (should be no surprise as everyone is biased).

Quote:
Yours are blatantly clear. You come to this film with a view that all future prophecy is not to be taken literally, there is no physical promise for Jew or gentile and not even a literal new heaven and earth. Everything is 'spiritual' whatever that means! I wonder if you live your life floating around in some ethereal vaporous state. lol. There really will be a physical resurrection of our bodies you know! The belief that that there is no (physical)resurrection of the dead is a major error that Paul tackles in 1 Corinthians 15.



You are misrepresenting my views as flagrantly as this movie misrepresents true Christians and I might add as flagrantly as they misrepresented the Polish Church (and I don't mean Catholics) during WWII. They blame the Church in Poland for not doing anything and just standing by while the Jews were treated so horribly.

Allow me to post a few statistics:

Catholics in Poland 1931 - 27,500,000 (87% of the population)
Protestant in Poland 1931 - 835,258 (2.62%% of the Roman Catholic population). .69% of population

Jews - 3,113,933 9.76% of population.

130,000 Protestants in Poland, today (Mostly Lutheran).

Barely 100,000 Protestants out of 835,258 survived the 3rd Reich.

Anyone who watches this video will notice that either they are afraid of saying anything about the Vatican's role in anti-Judaism, anti-semitism and anti-Zionism or something else is going on. I will leave that up to the viewer.

You misrepresent my eschatological views, too. I believe in the 2nd Coming of Christ and physical resurrection of our bodies. I also believe all the promises of Abraham are fulfilled in Christ. You don't like it that I say all the promises of Abraham are fulfilled in Christ and HRM people don't like that, either. It does not fit their narrative. I have had face to face discussions with them on this topic.



Based on your bias you have reacted against a historically accurate presentation in an inaccurate way. You say they place the guilt trip on 'true' Christians, but the truth is a large portion of the Christian church has been guilty of anti-Semitism (and those churches include within them 'true Christians).


Yes, the tares and wheat grow up together. We know that. No where in this film did they point that out or differentiate True Christianity from False Christianity. And they continually lumped true Christians in with the False CHurch of Rome yet barely even mentioned Rome and their atrocities. Nothing about Rome's concordat with Hitler. Why not? They mentioned the Arab leaders meeting with Hitler, but not the Cardinals of Rome. So, while there is a lot of historical truth in the film, I would not say it was note completely, historically accurate. They left out important things and this will make people draw incorrect conclusions.

Quote:
THEY who made the film are Christians! I am a Christian and do not feel guilty, because I see them as 'beloved for the sake of the fathers' (Rom. 11:28). So why do you feel guilty?? Was Martin Luther a true Christian? Did he write anti-Semitic literature? Yes and Yes!



I don't feel guilty! But, I sense that spirit. How could you not when they associate you with Hitler and Arabs, ISIS, Luther's anti-semitism and blame you for all of Rome's crimes (never mentioning they belong to Rome). God will decide if Martin Luther is a true Christian, only He knows them that are his. Do you think I agree with Martin Luther? Are you also lumping Christians who love the Jews and all other people with Martin Luther, Hitler, ISIS and Rome?

Why don't these "Christians", talk about the members of the True Church that do give their lives for the Jews? That did risk their lives helping them. No distinction is ever drawn.

Quote:
Again, why would you react when the truth about what the 'church' did against the Jews in the name of Christ is presented, instead of feel remorse and want to warn that church. It's just too easy to say "they're not the real church"! So when Jesus wrote to the churches in Revelation and rebuked them, were they not true churches? Yes there were some within that did not soil their garments with the rest, but that does not take away from the reality that Jesus rebuked HIS church.



You have no idea what I do in my personal life. One thing I don't engage in is trying to reform Babylon. Jesus said come out of them, not reform them. You are now drawing conclusions that I don't have a heart for the Jews or any kind of remorse. Condemnation and accusation just like is found in this video. Tell me how this can be good for Christians? You have the same accusatory spirit as the people that made this video.

Quote:
Here is an example of your unwarranted criticism: You state the film never mentions the persecution of Christians (implying they don't regard that as an issue). However the subject of the film is the persecution of the Jews, not Christians! That's like accusing the makers of a film on the persecution of the Kurds as not mentioning the persecution of Jews. It's not a rational point.



Yes, the subject of the film is the persecution of Jews, but there are many over-arching subjects that also come to light in this film. They never said the Kurds persecuted the Jews, they said over and over and over again the Christian church persecuted the Jews in quotes like this:

"Just this past winter we were in Northern Iraq, in Iraqi Kurdistan and I am sitting there with a family of Azziti's who have just fled ISIS, had their family members killed and are living in the mud, in the winter and I am looking at these families and thinking that just a few hundred years ago the Azzitis were Jewish people and instead of ISIS it was Christians that were persecuting the Jewish people that were driving them from one nation to another, from one city to another, they were kidnapping Jewish children, forcing them to be baptized and they were confiscating Jewish property. When you take a hard look at the history of Christian mistreatment of Jewish people, it is not an unfair comparison (to ISIS?). The Christian Church has blood on their hands!"

By comparison, overwhelmingly the Catholic Church has blood on their hands. I guess these "Christians" are counting Rome as Christian. But the film does not come across that way, it comes across as blaming the "true Christian" church for crimes worse than ISIS.

I lived and worked in Israel, on a Kibbutz, side by side with old men with tattooed numbers on their forearms. I ate with them and talked with them. I have nothing but love for the Jewish people and deep sympathy for what they have been through. I know who I am in Christ and I know who I am in relation to Jewish people and reject your accusations and subtle marginalizing of my concern for the Jewish people.

Clearly, Christians will always have "guilt" by association, it is Satan's clever way of infiltrating the Church and besmirching it and causing confusion. He will never draw distinctions between those who love Jesus and those who hate Him. I think after reading your comments, I am a less biased reviewer than you.

 2015/10/27 9:51
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re:

Quote:
HeyDave wrote:
Based on your bias you have reacted against a historically accurate presentation in an inaccurate way. You say they place the guilt trip on 'true' Christians, but the truth is a large portion of the Christian church has been guilty of anti-Semitism (and those churches include within them 'true Christians). THEY who made the film are Christians! I am a Christian and do not feel guilty, because I see them as 'beloved for the sake of the fathers' (Rom. 11:28). So why do you feel guilty?? Was Martin Luther a true Christian? Did he write anti-Semitic literature? Yes and Yes!


I wanted to repost your whole post and amen it!! Thank you for putting into words what I could not!


_________________
Lisa

 2015/10/27 8:48Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Well Julius, I am disappointed but not really surprised at your reaction.

Why have you set yourself up as THE impartial reviewer of this film as if your synopsis is one to be accepted by those who have not even watch it? Everyone has their own bias based on their own particular preconceptions. Yours are blatantly clear. You come to this film with a view that all future prophecy is not to be taken literally, there is no physical promise for Jew or gentile and not even a literal new heaven and earth. Everything is 'spiritual' whatever that means! I wonder if you live your life floating around in some ethereal vaporous state. lol.
There really will be a physical resurrection of our bodies you know! The belief that that there is no (physical)resurrection of the dead is a major error that Paul tackles in 1 Corinthians 15.

Based on your bias you have reacted against a historically accurate presentation in an inaccurate way. You say they place the guilt trip on 'true' Christians, but the truth is a large portion of the Christian church has been guilty of anti-Semitism (and those churches include within them 'true Christians). THEY who made the film are Christians! I am a Christian and do not feel guilty, because I see them as 'beloved for the sake of the fathers' (Rom. 11:28). So why do you feel guilty?? Was Martin Luther a true Christian? Did he write anti-Semitic literature? Yes and Yes!

Again, why would you react when the truth about what the 'church' did against the Jews in the name of Christ is presented, instead of feel remorse and want to warn that church. It's just too easy to say "they're not the real church"! So when Jesus wrote to the churches in Revelation and rebuked them, were they not true churches? Yes there were some within that did not soil their garments with the rest, but that does not take away from the reality that Jesus rebuked HIS church.

Here is an example of your unwarranted criticism: You state the film never mentions the persecution of Christians (implying they don't regard that as an issue). However the subject of the film is the persecution of the Jews, not Christians! That's like accusing the makers of a film on the persecution of the Kurds as not mentioning the persecution of Jews. It's not a rational point.


_________________
Dave

 2015/10/27 4:45Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re:


I post this quote again along with the names of videos that shows the persecution of Jews in Canada and England.... "we need to prepare for Jewish suffering in the future so that we are found faithful by the Lord and we are found helpful to the Jewish people when that great hour of suffering befalls them."

I had no idea that they were being treated this despicably. We will need to be prayed up to help "when that great hour of suffering befalls them."

Titles to search for on youtube:

title 1: Crossing The Line (UK)

title 2: Crossing the Line 2: The New Face of Anti-Semitism on Campus


God bless,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2015/10/27 2:29Profile









 Re:

I finished the video. It ended with this:

"We have a mandate, a Romans 11 mandate to provoke the Jew to covenantal fidelity through faith in their slaughtered Messiah, but we failed, dismally.

"To the Jew who has lost hope in His covenant keeping Creator, to the Church who has deflated the crown of the Jewish Messiah, to the Jihadis who are desperate to the steal the inheritance from Isaac's son, this is not the end of the story."

I will provide my transcript of notes, tomorrow.

 2015/10/27 2:29





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