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 Re:

Yeah, the Scriptures do not teach that the Gentiles have replaced the Jews as the chosen people. Who believes that except hateful religion that has co-opted the name of Christ.

Oracio,

In the film they lump all "Christians" into the same boat.

They say "if your theology of Israel divests them of their national or ethnic or territorial identity or destiny or covenantal promises you have embraced replacement theology".

Of course, true Believers have not done this and don't begrudge Jews or anyone else of their racial, ethnic or national identity including their earthly nation of Israel or their city of Jerusalem, but then they go on to say the following:

"The end result of fulfillment or covenant theology is the same end result of replacement theology, namely that there are no promises that remain for the Jewish people on a national level. It's almost like the Gentile church was envious, it liked the privileges, it took it over and it wanted to hang on to it. So, in other words, there has been rank identity theft."

Again, true believers have not done this. He is talking about the religious system that has committed it's own identity theft of Christianity. (There is an identity theft story to talk about) The false religious system of Christianity! They never differentiate even one time that the early church did not engage in these things. In fact, it was the Jews (Judaizers) that persecuted the early church. Saul was a persecutor until he got saved. It wasn't until Christianity was taken over by the State, and Christianity was co-opted at that time and became a religious system called Catholicism and they still claimed the name of Christianity (They are the TRUE Church) and they began to persecute Jews. This is never mentioned. All the pain and suffering of Jews is blamed on pagans, Islam and Christianity (they seldom, very seldom mention Catholicism).

Another quote:
"Why is Israel so important to the (evangelical) missions movement? Because the missions movement is either going to be spreading divestment, replacement, abbrogation theology that divests Israel of her covenantal identity and destiny which is fundamentally, anti-Judaic and has the capacity to be anti-semitic..."

Again, replacement theology lumped in with anti-semitism. There is for sure different strands of replacement theology and an evil "replacement theology", obviously exists. No doubt about that. But, Christians who quote Paul and Hebrews about the Old Covenant being done away with, are lumped into anything that has harmed the Jews through the centuries. Very misleading and intellectually dishonest.



They don't talk about the Apostle Paul at all and for good reason because Paul specifically says (in Hebrews) what would not be good for their movie. Paul would contradict them severely (and does in Hebrews) regarding "covenantal promises".

Here is a brief -
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

It was God that replaced the 1st covenant not man. It was God that invalidated it. Jesus displaced the entire Jewish system of religion, in order to replace it with the New Covenant which was enacted and confirmed by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. (Heb 8:8,13; 9:15; 12:24).

This New Covenant was made with the House of Israel and House of Judah - not at all according to the covenant that was made to their fathers when they were taken out of Egypt.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

The inheritance of promises is now an ETERNAL INHERITANCE found only in Christ. How plain does this have to be for Messianic Christians (HRM people in particular) to stop persecuting Gentile Christians and calling them anti-semitic? At least draw a distinction between the true church and the false church. And by the way, Jesus is letting them grow up together?

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of ETERNAL INHERITANCE.

I don't care how far the Hebrew Roots people or Jews want to go back to try to claim promises, the Holy Spirit goes back even further, all the way to Abel. The New Covenant speaks better things than anything before it, all the way back to Abel.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, THAT SPEAKETH BETTER THINGS THAN THAT OF ABEL.

Though we know this, we don't go around insulting Jews and being condescending to them.

And so, what is now important is the Heavenly Jerusalem. And though we might not see any role for earthly Jerusalem anymore, that should not be construed to mean that Jerusalem should not be Israel's capital and should not belong to Israel. Again, I don't know any true believer that thinks that. Just because one does not see any divine role for earthly Jerusalem does not make them a "jew-hater". Most Christians by the way, do see a divine role for earthly Jerusalem
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the CITY of the living God, THE HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Does this mean that Christians are anti-Semitic, absolutely not, otherwise Paul the Apostle and Jesus Christ are anti-semitic. All Abrahamic promises are now fulfilled in the Person of Jesus Christ. Jesus' death ended the 1st covenant, and replaced it with Himself and Paul explained it to all of us. But, they don't talk about Jesus and Paul in this movie because Hebrew Roots theology already has an answer for the verses above that I gave and they are slick answers and sadly many people have been beguiled by the Hebrew Roots Movement.



Note: I can't help but know as I watch this that the Hebrew Roots movement is totally against what they understand as "Replacement Theology" (New Covenant replacing the Old Covenant). It would be detestable if the HRM people are using the Jewish suffering for the furtherance of their own movement. How could they be furthering their movement? By loading a tremendous amount of guilt on true believers who understand the scriptures and get them to stop talking about fulfillment theology. Should we be "guilted" in stopping our teaching on Hebrews and Galatians? They want to preach the Gospel to Jews, but I am not sure what their Gospel is. It must be the HRM Gospel.

There is absolutely no question that this movie brings out how the Jews have suffered terribly since the 1st or 2nd century at the hands of pagans and religion. The third chapter of this movie looks pretty bad as we are getting into the Islamic treatment of Jews. The religious system that has co-opted the name Christian has also brought untold suffering to the true church of Jesus Christ. We call this the anti-christ spirit or anti-christian, and we know there is still much more suffering to come in the true church of God, and is already happening all around the world. We have a bit of a different mindset compared with Jews or anyone else that does not believe in Jesus Christ as we know we are appointed to suffering, promised tribulation and are taught by example through Jesus, Stephen and others to pray for those who persecute us and not to avenge ourselves. To overcome evil with good, and leave vengeance to God. To love our enemies. I have a deep sympathy and love for the Jewish people and it has to be a horrible thing to be the object of extermination and hatred and have no hope in this world or the next and I wholeheartedly agree with the narrators that we must reach out to the Jews with the Gospel. But, I can't compromise the scriptures in doing so. Paul did not preach an HRM gospel, in fact he had problems with Judaizers all of the time. But, he would not compromise what the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ meant.

 2015/10/26 19:41
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:



by Julius21-Again, true believers have not done this. He is talking about the religious system that has committed it's own identity theft of Christianity. (There is an identity theft story to talk about) The false religious system of Christianity! They never differentiate even one time that the early church did not engage in these things. In fact, it was the Jews (Judaizers) that persecuted the early church. Saul was a persecutor until he got saved. It wasn't until Christianity was taken over by the State, and Christianity was co-opted at that time and became a religious system called Catholicism and they still claimed the name of Christianity (They are the TRUE Church) and they began to persecute Jews. This is never mentioned. All the pain and suffering of Jews is blamed on pagans, Islam and Christianity (they seldom, very seldom mention Catholicism).


_____________________________________

Greetings
I do not want to take the thread off topic but I think you have brought up such an important topic here. I agree with what you have shared in this paragraph. Thank you for taking the time to share this with us here.

God bless
mj

 2015/10/26 20:13Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 2009
Dothan, Alabama

 Re:

Brother Julius,

Thank you for sharing your perspective and I'd imagine you'd find agreement from most (including myself) here on SI, tho I would like to point out a few things for integrities sake-
While it's true what you say about the Catholic Church's role, it isn't the only group of Christians who maintain this perspective. Unless I'm misreading you (and I may be) you seem to isolate this phenomenon to the CC and that would not be accurate.
As for the HRM's agenda being a potential motivating force for this film or their desire to spread the gospel to the Jews is a lil presumptuous. As you admit you're "not sure what their gospel is"....but then to go on to a definitive statement of "it must be the HRM gospel" is seemingly an out of character remark from such a salty saint as yourself.


You wrote;"They don't talk about the Apostle Paul at all and for good reason because Paul specifically says (in Hebrews) what would not be good for their movie. Paul would contradict them severely (and does in Hebrews) regarding "covenantal promises".

Hmmm, Brother this is just simply not so...not sure if you missed part of it or what,... actually it (Romans 11) was the axis upon which they pivot in expounding on the point they're trying to make on behalf of our Semitic brethren and the churches arrogance and utter failing in provoking them.

Btw- I don't think Paul wrote Hebrews;) syntactically it is inconsistent with his other writings, imo-

Edit for spelling


_________________
Fletcher

 2015/10/26 21:29Profile









 Re:

Hi JFW,

I do think Paul wrote Hebrews (but that is just a minor issue) and I was not talking about Romans. The fact that they use a few scriptures, is not impressive, especially since they marginalize everything and anything that is Christian. As I said, this is not intellectually honest. Of course it is not just Roman Catholicism, Christianity has been co-opted by others for their own agenda, too. But, never once are any distinctions drawn or is anything ever said about the millions and millions of true believers that have been tortured and killed. People are left thinking that these persecuted true believers in Christ are getting revenge when it is not them at all.

In the context of the entire movie, they use only a few scriptures. The movie seeks to appeal to emotions and to guilt all the hearers. I have had a lot of dealings with the HRM and I recognize this "guilting" spirit. I do not believe it is from the Lord.

If they did not consistently bash "Christianity" and at the same time draw proper distinctions about the true Church of God, I would say you are right, but they did not and I could not let that pass. And because of this, I think my discernment antenna is correct in being "suspicious". I do indeed suspect something else is afoot.

Their constant hammering of Christianity and lumping ALL Christians into the same bag, reminds me of a line in Hamlet, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks".

Wait until you see my full review.

 2015/10/26 21:59
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Julius21, just want to also express my appreciation of your review of the film.


_________________
Oracio

 2015/10/26 22:32Profile









 Re:

You are welcome, Oracio.

I am still not done, as I had some vehicle trouble today, but now that is all taken care of.

It is taking me some time because I want those who cannot watch it for one reason or another to read their statements. And when you read their statements, remember that they portray themselves as Believers in Messiah.

I think this movie had the potential to be something special, but so far, it is just a big black cloud hanging over Christians. But, I don't receive the black cloud, I am looking for the Sonshine.

It's kind of like if you are a gun owner, you are being blamed for all the deaths in Sandy Hook Elementary, Oregon Community College, the Church in South Carolina, etc, etc., even though you were in none of those places and you are a responsible, law abiding person. Guilt by association of a firearm. You are an evil person if you own a firearm.

In this case, guilt by association with Christ, except this false Christianity is following a false Christ. The statement should at least be made that this is not True Christianity but some satanic individuals, but no statement is ever made about true Christianity or the Early Church or what Jesus and the Apostles taught. You are an evil person if you call yourself a Christian and you believe there are no longer divine promises (other than what is promised in Christ) for the Jews.

 2015/10/26 22:43
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re:

Quote:
from the film....
I have many dear beloved friends who hold to what I believe is just basic replacement theology. If I made that assertion to them, they would recoil and say, "Dalton, this is not replacement theology, this is covenant or fulfillment or inclusion theology."

If your theology of Israel divests them of their National, ethnic, territorial or identity or destiny, you have embraced replacement theology. You may not use the term, you may not use the language, you may not even believe you believe it...

The end result of fulfillment theology is the same result as replacement theology, namely that there are no promises that remain for the Jewish people on a National level.

It's almost as though the Gentile church was a little envious, it lacked the privileges, it took it over and it's wanted to hang on to it. So in other words, there's been rank identity theft.


This is a quote from the film that I posted on 09/15 in Great Quotes. And then another from a thread I started on it....

Quote:

When we sit down to eat a meal at the table, if one of our kids is missing, we don’t start our meal until that child is there. I think sometimes that we don’t realize that there’s somebody missing from our table, we’re eating and we’re enjoying the meal without even realizing that our child, our brother, Israel, is missing. If our family is ready to leave a place, if all the children except one are in the car, we don’t just leave and go because we feel that one of our kids are missing.

The church today has a great need to recognize that Israel is missing from our bus, Israel is missing from our dinner table, let’s grab hold of God’s apostolic heart for Israel and let’s believe with Him for the salvation of His people... all Israel shall be saved.

The Holocaust of the nineteen thirties and forties was by no means a one-off atrocity and it was by no means an aberration of history, it was one event in a long series of events in a long historical continuum of Christian anti-Judaism and pagan anti-Semitism. Now at the end of the age we are facing a mingling together of anti-Semitism, anti-Judaism and anti-Zionism.

We understand that we need to take responsibility for Jewish suffering of the past and own it and repent of it and we need to prepare for Jewish suffering in the future so that we are found faithful by the Lord and we are found helpful to the Jewish people when that great hour of suffering befalls them.


_________________
Lisa

 2015/10/27 2:14Profile









 Re:

I finished the video. It ended with this:

"We have a mandate, a Romans 11 mandate to provoke the Jew to covenantal fidelity through faith in their slaughtered Messiah, but we failed, dismally.

"To the Jew who has lost hope in His covenant keeping Creator, to the Church who has deflated the crown of the Jewish Messiah, to the Jihadis who are desperate to the steal the inheritance from Isaac's son, this is not the end of the story."

I will provide my transcript of notes, tomorrow.

 2015/10/27 2:29
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re:


I post this quote again along with the names of videos that shows the persecution of Jews in Canada and England.... "we need to prepare for Jewish suffering in the future so that we are found faithful by the Lord and we are found helpful to the Jewish people when that great hour of suffering befalls them."

I had no idea that they were being treated this despicably. We will need to be prayed up to help "when that great hour of suffering befalls them."

Titles to search for on youtube:

title 1: Crossing The Line (UK)

title 2: Crossing the Line 2: The New Face of Anti-Semitism on Campus


God bless,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2015/10/27 2:29Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Well Julius, I am disappointed but not really surprised at your reaction.

Why have you set yourself up as THE impartial reviewer of this film as if your synopsis is one to be accepted by those who have not even watch it? Everyone has their own bias based on their own particular preconceptions. Yours are blatantly clear. You come to this film with a view that all future prophecy is not to be taken literally, there is no physical promise for Jew or gentile and not even a literal new heaven and earth. Everything is 'spiritual' whatever that means! I wonder if you live your life floating around in some ethereal vaporous state. lol.
There really will be a physical resurrection of our bodies you know! The belief that that there is no (physical)resurrection of the dead is a major error that Paul tackles in 1 Corinthians 15.

Based on your bias you have reacted against a historically accurate presentation in an inaccurate way. You say they place the guilt trip on 'true' Christians, but the truth is a large portion of the Christian church has been guilty of anti-Semitism (and those churches include within them 'true Christians). THEY who made the film are Christians! I am a Christian and do not feel guilty, because I see them as 'beloved for the sake of the fathers' (Rom. 11:28). So why do you feel guilty?? Was Martin Luther a true Christian? Did he write anti-Semitic literature? Yes and Yes!

Again, why would you react when the truth about what the 'church' did against the Jews in the name of Christ is presented, instead of feel remorse and want to warn that church. It's just too easy to say "they're not the real church"! So when Jesus wrote to the churches in Revelation and rebuked them, were they not true churches? Yes there were some within that did not soil their garments with the rest, but that does not take away from the reality that Jesus rebuked HIS church.

Here is an example of your unwarranted criticism: You state the film never mentions the persecution of Christians (implying they don't regard that as an issue). However the subject of the film is the persecution of the Jews, not Christians! That's like accusing the makers of a film on the persecution of the Kurds as not mentioning the persecution of Jews. It's not a rational point.


_________________
Dave

 2015/10/27 4:45Profile





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