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Romans 8:28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


 2015/10/4 4:40


I never get tired of hearing the explanations I hear about the few sample versus I just posted. The amount of bias, dislike, spin and mental juggling required to make them fit into the mind of man is astounding.

Reading through the posts here it is clear that my original statement of never and never needs a bit of explaining. I am not a hyper Calvinist, I do not see man as a robot and every single action that occurs on earth as under the complete active control of God. He is not a brooding deity with His thumb in every pie, peeking into every room and obsessing, prying, plying and dictating 24/7.

As the versus I posted with unmistakable clarity demonstrate, God did the planning, heavy lifting and architectural designing before one single atom outside Himself ever existed. The problem with the sovereignty of God and humans is we put it inside time! God is not inside time, He does not obey time, is not ruled by time and does not exercise His sovereignty according to time.

God acts according to His own good pleasure, He does what He wants, when He wants, however He wants. An action of God is right because it's an action of God. He is never hurried, never pressured and under no obligation. He is altogether free to plan, design and perform in the way that pleases Himself. He rejoices in Himself, enjoys Himself and is altogether pleased all the time by Himself.

So yes man can go for ice cream, walk his dog, make personal self directed decisions and decide 99% of his movements on earth. And at the same time God was, is and will forever be the sovereign Ruler of all and every single one of those actions and activities. But how can those two things be true at the same time (in time) happen without conflict or contradiction? The answer is surprisingly easy.

God in His wisdom predestiated a body for His Son and a temple for the Holy Spirit. And with an infinite number of designs, ideas and plans to chose from He chose the best one. He then from His position in infinity effortlessly looked through every single action, activity, result, consequence and effect that would occur inside His creation and Sovereignly decided which to permit and which to not. His will and Power are the determining Ruler of everything that angels, man and planets have ever done. He does not actively "in time" need to deal with these events because He did it ages ago. If I throw a ball, I pick it up and swing my arm and off it flys. It forms an arch and goes as far as gravity allows it. It does this of my free will but behind that God eons ago foresaw me throwing that ball and Sovereignly decided to let it happen without any interference. while other events like the second world war He decided "this far and no farther will Hitler go"

Events take place that God chose to intervene in and millions occur that He chose to do nothing about. But He did decide to do nothing about them and He decided inside His infinity not during the events occurring in time.

God in every single event that has ever occurred is 100% Sovereign and He exercised His Sovereignty before He created anything. Man inside time feels and thinks he is totally free but every action regardless of how insignificant was looked at and allowed by God. The actions that God did not allow are not seen or understood by the man himself unless God also Sovereignly chose to reveal that as well.

This is hated by the flesh and Christians who desire a God who is actively and imminently involved in time concerning every single thought and action they have or do. Almost the entire Church has a God involved 100% of the time in 100% of their day to day. That of course is why so many are fearful and indecisive seeking Gods inpute on every single thing they do. It also has made the Church look like bunch of people trying endlessly to get God to do things He is apparently not very interested in doing.

Let me stress that what I have said does not mean that God is totally Transendant alone. God loves His children, interacts with His children and His presence can be manifestly obvious to believers. His Sovereignty clearly includes His decision to participate in the outcome of certain things as a partner with His children with His direct and Immenant participation. But like everything else He decided to do that ages ago in His perfect Sovereign Will.


 2015/10/4 4:57


A simple illustration that answers my "never and never" point is this.

Man and time is a ship. The Sovereignty of God determined that the ship would leave from New York city and arrive in London yet He tells very few people on the ship. The ship has open, limited and no access areas and people are moving all around the ship. You can move freely anywhere as you choose among the areas that access allows. All the time you have the sense of total freedom as there appears to be nothing limiting your movements in any way. It therefore appears that you have 100% free will and on the ship with few exceptions you do. But the ship is going to London and that is 100% under the power of the Sovereignty of God.

I have decided to not illustrate the dominance of the Law of Sin and Death that totally enslaves every decision of fallen man and limits even the seeming free choices he thinks he makes. Fallen man is a total slave to his sinful nature inside a barbed wire compound of sin and death but this is obviously also inside God Sovereignty and the decisions He made before time existed as well.

FTR this is why the "free will", "make your decision for Christ" Gospel gets laughed at and why the reform message face to face causes all the blood to instantly leave the face of the unsaved as conviction of sin hits them like a freight train. They consider for the very first time in their lives that the decision is not what they will do about Jesus but instead what will Jesus do about them. In other words maybe they are simply a passenger on a ship who's course was not picked by themselves. You can actually see that "Uh oh" look come upon them.


 2015/10/4 5:47


There is zero conflict between the Sovereignty of God and the apparent freedom of man. They take place at two completely seperate times.

One happens today and the other happened ages ago.

Gods Sovereignty "never" ends because it went before everything else and cannot be changed in Gods eternity future.

Mans free will "never" begins because his every choice has already been allowed or disallowed by the Sovereignty of God in the eons of Gods eternity past.


 2015/10/4 6:25

Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5679



Based on your last responses (which I get, but simply disagree with) there is absolutely no reason for prayer.

If we pray for something, God knew eons ago that we would pray and what His answer would be.

If we pray to thank Him or praise him, the same thing applies.



 2015/10/4 9:57Profile



You are very much mistaken. True prayer is a response to God. This is one of those areas where the Will of God chose parcipitation with man. God has desired fellowship with man and prayer is the greatest single action we do that facilitates that fellowship.

99% of prayer is not answered becaused it is asked amiss. It is born from the flesh or desire to recieve something from God that is notin His will. Sometimes like Paul asking for the thorn to be removed the reason is given and other times it is not.

Prayers that are answered are prayers that are given to your heart from God, spoken in response back to Him and granted because they are His initiated will.

Jesus said "I only say what I hear the Father say" this included His prayers and as you know every single one was granted. When God taught me this everything changed. My requests in prayer shrunk to next to nothing but every one of them was granted because they were born from His Will for myself or another.


 2015/10/4 10:18

Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1470
Dothan, Alabama


Brother Marc,

You wore; "Gods Sovereignty "never" ends because it went before everything else and cannot be changed in Gods eternity future.

Mans free will "never" begins because his every choice has already been allowed or disallowed by the Sovereignty of God in the eons of Gods eternity past."

So again I ask the question; Does a kings sovereignty extend beyond the border of his kingdom or form the border itself?


 2015/10/4 10:23Profile



The scriptures are laser clear on that point.

1 Corinthians 15:12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 2015/10/4 10:30



Many Christians like Rees Howell are given a ministry of prayer. God literally fills their hearts with the will, grace and list of things to be born through prayer. But they came from Gods will.

Sadly many try to do in the flesh what God gave a man or woman as a ministry and they burn themselves out without any fruit thinking any believer could do what Rees Howells did if they persisted long and hard enough. It's tragic.


 2015/10/4 10:38


It should be obvious that I'm referring to the prayers of inter session and request. You can go to Him and tell Him you love and adore Him and you will bask in His presence joyfully all day long.

Luke 10:25And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.


 2015/10/4 10:43

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