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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Great "Falling Away".The Maths doesnt Work!!

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budgie
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Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: The taking out of the way

The biggest mistranslation has been done in this verse, and causes such error the Greek tells us exactly what it is.

The correct translation is

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now holds back will do so until he comes into existence out of the midst. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

No one is taking anyone out of the way.

Paul told us what must take place before Jesus comes and that is the unveiling of the son of perdition

That is what is holding back the coming of Christ, scripture must be fulfilled, prophesy must be fulfilled, the son of perdition must be revealed in his fullness the son of perdition who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what holds back that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now holds back will do so until he comes into existence out of the midst.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Search the scriptures and see where Ginomai is used 672 times consistently in the Greek but in the English translation it is consistent 671 times but not in 2 Thess 2

Very poor translation.

Greens King James 3 by Green translates it consistent

No one is removing anything out of the way

 2015/10/9 2:14Profile









 Re:

Interesting, Budgie. Worthy of consideration, I would say.

 2015/10/9 5:14
Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Proudpapa. Quote"What was your take on Wesley's Notes for 2 Thessalonians 2:3
2:3 Unless the falling away - From the pure faith of the gospel, come first. This began even in the apostolic age."

This is an interesting view. I had not read Wesley on this, but I wondered about the 'great' apostasy that went right through the Dark Ages when the Roman church pretty much controlled and dominated most of the so called Christian world at that time prior to the reformation.
True Christians then must have thought they were close to, if not in the end times due to that Apostate church and the pope as Anti Christ. I can't imagine an apostasy greater than this.


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Dave

 2015/10/9 7:21Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5638
NC, USA

 Re:

Budgie wrote:
"only he who now holds back will do so until he comes into existence"

Why did Paul use the word "now?"


_________________
Todd

 2015/10/9 7:22Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by Heydave on 2015/10/9 7:21:40

Proudpapa. Quote"What was your take on Wesley's Notes for 2 Thessalonians 2:3
2:3 Unless the falling away - From the pure faith of the gospel, come first. This began even in the apostolic age."

This is an interesting view. I had not read Wesley on this, but I wondered about the 'great' apostasy that went right through the Dark Ages when the Roman church pretty much controlled and dominated most of the so called Christian world at that time prior to the reformation.
True Christians then must have thought they were close to, if not in the end times due to that Apostate church and the pope as Anti Christ. I can't imagine an apostasy greater than this.



Yet, we are already seeing it, today.

 2015/10/9 8:18
dolfan
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Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1644
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

It looks to me......and I am cautious about forming firm opinion because I am not certain, and this is all terribly interesting as I go through it with your posts ....... that the 2 Th passage speaks of "restraining" as "holding steady" as in a steady, long term aiming at a particular time. The man of lawlessness appears in the passage as one who is holding steady the mystery of lawlessness in the world until his time comes to be revealed, which will happen when he comes from the midst (the ginomai budgie wrote about). The man steadily aims the mystery (guiding it and influencing men) with an eye on his time which, when it comes, will see him appear from the midst, and to be met at some point with the appearing of Jesus who will destroy the man and, I suppose, his mystery of lawlessness.

Does this make sense? It does to me. Maybe I am way wrong.


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Tim

 2015/10/9 9:26Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5638
NC, USA

 Re:

Yes Tim-

But the "correct" translation that budgie quoted said that the restraining was happening "now." The sense is something (a man?) was restraining himself until the right moment, rather than being restrained by something else.

But Paul wrote this in the 1st century.

So obviously Paul was not referring to an actual man, unless that man was alive then and is still alive today. (I.e., he's one old dude).

If he wasn't referring to a person, what was he referring to?


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Todd

 2015/10/9 11:32Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5638
NC, USA

 Re:

That verse again: "he who now holds back will do so until he comes into existence"

I guess the question that a lot hinges on is whether the first "he" is the same person as the second "he."


_________________
Todd

 2015/10/9 11:52Profile
passerby
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Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 643


 Re:

I think what budgie was trying to point out is:

What is being 'restrained' is the 'day of the Lord' and the 'restrainer' are the events that must precede it. That until those are fulfilled that 'day' will await.

The first 'he' is the Lord (His coming), the 2nd 'he' is 'the man of sin' (2Th 2:7).

It talks about chronology of events. Anyway, how we think about it will not really change the way these prophesies will come to pass. What we can do is to pray hard, that we will be faithful to the end.

 2015/10/9 12:13Profile









 Re:

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

The thing that resonates with me and that I witness to more than anything is the mystery of iniquity is being restrained. So, what is the "mystery of iniquity"? It is linked to something I mentioned earlier in this thread or another one regarding, "What is Man".

What is the "Mystery of the Gospel", the "Mystery of Christ", the "revelation of the mystery, which was kept SECRET since the world began"?

Rom_16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

When you know the the "Mystery of Christ", "What is Man", then you will understand the "Mystery of Iniquity".

The Mystery of Iniquity is opposite the Mystery of Christ.

But, you have to also understand that man is not an independent self. He is either linked to the Mystery of Iniquity or the Mystery of Christ. No third option. No standing alone, and apart from either of them.

Christ obviously is integral (the center of) to the Mystery of Christ and Satan is integral (the center of) to the Mystery of Iniquity, and man is linked to one of them, not both at the same time and cannot stand apart.

Now, do you see what 2 Thess 2 is about?

Also, think "people of God" when "temple" is used in NT.

2Th_2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

I don't think it is a physical temple in Jerusalem. Think who the people of God are.

What is Man? A cup, a branch, a temple.

Mystery of Christ - to dwell in man. (Col 1:27)

Mystery of Iniquity - to dwell in man. (Eph 2:2, 1 Jn 3:8,10)

Satan - false head of false body.

Christ - true Head of true body.

Wheat and tares grow up together and only God (has the wisdom and discernment) knows how to separate them.

 2015/10/9 14:37





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