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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Great "Falling Away".The Maths doesnt Work!!

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staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1583


 Re:

Hi Julius
No i didnt say that you said that their would be a great falling away.
What I was asking was if the falling away was to be large in number would that mean their would have to be an end time harvest for this to happen?(as we obviously dont have that large number now in the church)
Personally I think because Jesus highlighted it
1.It must be huge
2.The effect of the falling away seems to be great not small.

I think if you asked most christians I would say they think it is huge
Also I said does the church restrain?Not is the church the restrainer?thanks
Yours Staff

 2015/10/5 21:18Profile









 Re:

1) Does the Church restrain what or who, staff?

2) I don't know how great the falling away will be or how large the end time harvest will be or if it will be large (whatever large means). One thing is clear from the scriptures, God is not obsessed with numbers. He is looking for quality. (Those who abide in Him and keep His commandments).

John 6:66-68
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Jesus wasn't fretting that many of His disciples left Him.

I prefer the KJV rendering.

2 Thessalonians 2:5-6
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

 2015/10/5 22:05
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1583


 Re:

Hi Julius,

Does the Church (true believers) restrain evil in the world?

I think im fair in saying you didnt answer the main question after two different posts.
However I give you credit for being the only one who tried.
It obvious that the "falling away" if it is the true believers is a relatively small event unless their is an end time harvest to boost the numbers of true believers.
Although the bible isnt clear most people from all views believe it is a big event.
The problem is that neither scenario fits well in your theology so you reply as you did.This isnt about numbers its about things adding up.The "Maths Doesnt Work" it doesnt add up,
Yours Staff



 2015/10/7 6:34Profile









 Re:

Edited:

Quote:
by staff on 2015/10/7 6:34:29

Hi Julius,

Does the Church (true believers) restrain evil in the world?



I don't see anything in Scripture that says the sheep are restrainers. I see that they are light and they are salt, but have not seen anything that says their responsibility is to restrain evil.

Regarding restraining evil, I do see this:
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

I don't see anywhere where this is said about Believers.

Sheep (God's people) are also killed all the day long, being accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Rom_8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Do you have any scripture in mind? At least two witnesses, please.

Quote:
I think I'm fair in saying you didn't answer the main question after two different posts.



You might be, I don't know. Your questions are confusing. What was the "main" question?

Quote:
However I give you credit for being the only one who tried.



Ahhh, that's nice. Thanks!


Quote:
It obvious that the "falling away" if it is the true believers is a relatively small event unless their is an end time harvest to boost the numbers of true believers.



Relative to the number of true believers, it may not be viewed as a small event. Any mass number of believers falling away would be seen as sorrowful to Believers, and thus too many.

Quote:
Although the bible isn't clear most people from all views believe it is a big event.



Why do you think "most people from all views think it is a big event". And do you think they mean "Big" event as in numbers or big event as in "important" and "shocking"?

Quote:
The problem is that neither scenario fits well in your theology so you reply as you did.This isnt about numbers its about things adding up.The "Maths Doesnt Work" it doesnt add up,
Yours Staff



What is the math again? What are you adding up?

And, what is my theology on this? Did I say what it was? Not sure. What do you think?

 2015/10/7 11:14
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1583


 Re:

Hi Julius,
The Math is simple and I think you know exactly what i am saying at this stage.
What I am saying is that people cant have their cake and eat it.
For the falling away to be a big event within the church their would have to be a huge harvest.The problem is that doesnt fit into the theological box of Post Tribulational beliefs.
OR
The falling away is a small event within the church and that doesnt fit in with Post Tribulational beliefs either because Post Tribulationists have rigthly in my view always thought it to be a big event with major consequences.
Its one or the other,It cant be neither or it cant be both.
The trouble is no matter which you choose your in a catch 22,
Yours Staff

 2015/10/7 17:41Profile









 Re:

Ok, so big or small, the Post Trib people can't do math.

The Word says nothing about it being big or small.

So, without those two variables, there is not much of an equation. It just says many will be deceived, and betray one another but we don't know what "many", actually means, do we?

It appears to me, that God does not want us doing "math" to figure this out.

If you are concerned for post-tribbers falling away if they get caught by a surprise pre-trib rapture, I think you should ease your worries as they are preparing spiritually for tribulation, anyway. I don't see them saying, "Lord, you are supposed to come pre-wrath, after the trib not pre-trib." Of course, how does anyone know if we are in the Beginning of Sorrows or not? How does anyone know they are in tribulation? 2/3 of the world has been through terrible tribulation, already.

What is your concern? It can't just be math or post-tribbers.

 2015/10/7 17:50
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1583


 Re:

Hi all
Yes I agree that is the case big or small most people not just post trib but pre trib have not done the maths correctly.
If the falling away is from the believers only at this particular time in history then that will be a relatively small amount of people compares to the worlds population.
If the falling away is sometime in the future and is from believers only but is a large portion of the worlds population then their would have to be a vast influx of non believers into the kingdom.
Either way this causes a problem for the Post Tribulation view which is held by many great Christian people and scholars.

The great tribulation is not normal tribulation but is a specific time in history that is going to make World war 1 and 2 look like a picnic and that time has not yet come.
My concern is for my brothers and sisters in Christ,
Yours Staff

 2015/10/7 19:04Profile









 Re:

Well, we share concern for the same people, then.

 2015/10/7 19:11
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 staff

RE: /// the case big or small most people not just post trib but pre trib have not done the maths correctly.///

What was your take on Wesley's Notes for 2 Thessalonians 2:3
2:3 Unless the falling away - From the pure faith of the gospel, come first. This began even in the apostolic age.




 2015/10/7 22:12Profile
passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 643


 Re: staff

The great falling away is an ominous global moral calamity that will go hand in hand with the delusion preparing the revelation of the man of sin and the great havoc he will bring.

Whether the great evil of the man of sin and the great tribulation is mathematically equal is something to think about but there is a strong support that the great tribulation itself is the Lord'act in which the true believers will not be without divine protection.

We know that the great tribulation itself will be cut short for the sake of the elect, if that will mean mid trib or post trib. 2 thess chapter 2 declared that the day of the Lord and the gathering will not come or will only come post event the falling away and the man of sin.

 2015/10/8 1:58Profile





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