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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Great "Falling Away".The Maths doesnt Work!!

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 Re:

Unfortunately, relative to the number of Christians at the time, we are not told if the falling away is small or not. You are drawing conclusions based on number of church members worldwide. We don't know how many of those members of religious institutions are true believers. It is also unclear to me whether you are including false Christian religions such as the Catholic religion or others.

We just know what Jesus says in Matthew 24 and Luke 21..."many".


Matthew 24:10-12
And then shall MANY be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive MANY. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of MANY shall wax cold.

And we know that they who name the name of the Lord will depart from sin.
2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

 2015/10/4 16:38
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1583


 Re:

Hi Julius
To Be clear true believers only.So as you admitted yourself before that will indeed be a relatively small percentage of the worlds population.So does this number act as a restrainer?
Or does any number of True Christians act as a restrainer?

Also if that number is too be greater than it is today then we would have to have an great end times harvest,
Yours Staff

 2015/10/4 18:17Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1450
Dothan, Alabama

 Re:

Is it not the hand of God that restrains?
Like in all the other instances in scripture, till He gives them over to their desires?
At which point it would be perfectly logical that the son of perdition would be revealed, would it not?


_________________
Fletcher

 2015/10/4 18:26Profile









 Re:

The "hand of God" is extended through His angels and His Body, but I believe that Michael is the one God is using to restrain.

 2015/10/4 19:55
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: taken out of the way

Sadly many and I say many have totally misunderstood verses 6 and 7 because they have never taken the time and effort to look at the original Greek translation for verse 7

Taken is an incorrect translation, if you look at all 672 uses of the greek word Ginomai in the NT you will see that the word means to come into existance or into being or fulfilment It Does Not Mean To Remove.

The Greek word for remove is completely different.

Also the way has been translated totally incorrect as well. It does not mean to be blocking it means to be in the midst of, to be among.

Do a study for yourselves

Paul said in verse 6 that you now know what must happen before Christ returns to gather us to himself, and that is that the son of perdition will be revealed at the right time

Paul said in verse 7 that the mystery of iniquity is already at work and he that is holding back will do so until he comes into existence out of the midst

Paul then continues by saying Then shall that wicked one be revealed whom Jesus will destroy at His Parousia.

Here is a link to a good balanced study on this subject of very very poor translation

http://www.logosapostolic.org/bible_study/RP355-9-2Thessalonians2v7.htm

Please have a look and see before yourselves, it makes more sense and much more harmony

 2015/10/5 0:58Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

JFW, this is a little long but I bow to this writing which I don't have the expertise to put in writing. But I fully agree with what is written.

Your wrote, Quote; "Having said that I'm still not sure how you arrived at the conclusion you did in your previous post regarding not being able to fall away when you had cited Hebrews 6:6 which (among others) clearly says we can....

How is this so?"

Gaebelein's Annoted Bible
Hebrews 6:1

CHAPTER 6

1. Return to Judaism the crucifixion of the Son of God afresh (6:1-8)
2. Persuaded of better things: Comfort and hope (6:9-20)

Verses 1-8. A solemn warning follows, addressed to these Hebrews who were halting and in danger of turning back to Judaism, and doing so would crucify the Son of God afresh. "Therefore leaving the word of the beginning of Christ, let us go on to full growth; not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and faith in God, of a teaching of baptisms, and of laying on of hands and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." It is of much importance to see that these things are not "the principles of the doctrine of Christ" (as the authorized version erroneously states). These things mentioned are the elementary things which the Jews had before Christ came and as they were still occupied with them, He exhorts to leave the word of the beginning of Christ, the Messiah, and to go on to full growth. The full growth is Christianity as revealed in the finished work of Christ, the glory of His Person, His priesthood and the fact that the believer is in Christ and complete in Him.

While these Hebrews had believed in Christ, that He had come, they had not gone on to this maturity and lacked the spiritual knowledge of what Christ had done and the blessed results of His work and priesthood. They were therefore to leave the elementary things which they had and believed in as Jews, and abandoning them, reach the true Christian maturity. And these elementary things consisted in repentance from dead works and of faith in God. This was known and taught in Judaism. But it is faith in God, but nothing is said of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. When baptism is mentioned and laying on of hands it has nothing whatever to do with Christian baptism, and much less does the laying on of hands mean "confirmation." (Confirmation as practiced in the Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopal, and several other Protestant denominations is a merely ecclesiastical invention without the slightest scriptural foundation.) The word "baptism" is in the plural--"baptisms"--the different washings the Jews practice in connection with the ceremonial law, and so also the Jewish imposition of hands. These Jewish washings and purifications were only shadows of what was to come. It had come; and yet these Jews, though believing that Christ had come, still lingered in these things. Resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment, the things concerning the future were likewise the teachings they had in Judaism. But Christianity gives a higher truth, namely, "the resurrection from among the dead" and that the believer is passed from death unto life and shall not come into judgment.--"And this will he do if God permit"-- that is in the coming unfolding of true Christianity, the full growth, as given in chapters 7-10.

Before the author of the Epistle does this he shows what it would mean if these Hebrews turn back to Judaism altogether, and instead of going on to full growth would abandon the Christian ground they occupied as professing believers in Christ. Such a course would make it impossible to renew them again to repentance, for they, by falling away, crucified afresh for themselves the Son of God, putting Him to open shame. They committed the crime, which was done by them through ignorance (Lu 23:34; Ac 3:17), now knowingly of their own will and choice. For such a wilful falling away there was no remedy. The things mentioned in verses 4 and 5 show the possibility that a person may be enlightened, and have tested, and even participated, by listening to the testimony of the Spirit concerning Christ, and seen miracles, the powers of the age to come--without having fully accepted the offered salvation.

"The warning here has been a sore perplexity to many who are far as possible from the condition which is here contemplated. The description of these apostates, solemn as it is, does not speak of them as children of God, as justified by faith, or in any way which would imply such things as these; and the apostle, after describing them, immediately adds, as to those whom he is addressing; 'But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, even things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.' This is the most distinct assurance that he had no thought of one who had known salvation incurring the doom of an apostate" Numerical Bible.

All the blessings offered upon Christian ground are to such outward professors like rain, which instead of bringing forth from the ground useful herbs, brings thorns and briers, worthless, nigh unto cursing, and then the end, to be burned. Of a true child of God this can never be said.

("When once we have understood that this passage is a comparison of the power of the spiritual system with Judaism, and that it speaks of giving up the former, after having known it, its difficulty disappears. The possession of life is not supposed, nor is that question touched. The passage speaks, not of life, but of the Holy Ghost as a power present in Christianity. To "taste the good word" is to have understood how precious that word is; and not the having been quickened by its means. Hence in speaking to the Jewish Christians he hopes better things and things which accompany salvation, so that all these things could be there and yet no salvation. Fruit there could not be. That supports life" Synopsis of the Bible.)

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2015/10/5 6:11Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1583


 Re:

Hi Julius,
So you are saying the church doesnt restrain?
Basically i think you didnt answer my question in around about way.Everything Good comes from god including restraining.
Also are you now saying for a their to be a "great falling away" of real believers then their will have to be world wide revival first?so we would have enough true believers to fall away in a great way.Is that a fair way to put it?
Yours Staff

 2015/10/5 6:35Profile









 Re:

Yes, I am saying the Church is not the Restrainer.

Obviously, God is the source of all that is good. However, He chooses to manifest His will through men and angels as I showed in Daniel.

I never said anything about a "great way", or "great falling away". That was your error early on and someone corrected you indicating the term "great falling away", does not appear in scripture.

 2015/10/5 8:43









 Re:

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, THE GREAT PRINCE WHICH STANDETH FOR THE CHILDREN OF THY PEOPLE: and there shall be a time of trouble, SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

 2015/10/5 9:03









 Re:

Restrainer can't be the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit is God and no one will take Him out of the way. No one will come to Christ then, without the Holy Spirit.

I believe restraint is being released even, today. In the past 10 years it appears in the natural that men are throwing off all restraint, but I believe the powers of darkness are being given a freer hand. Which shows me that the Restrainer or Witholder, is not going to stop withholding evil all at once but that it is a gradual process (such as the gradual opening of seals). So, it is not the Church because if it were, they are not doing a very good job of holding withholding evil.

 2015/10/5 9:53





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