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budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: Well said Julius

I agree with your reply to Julius TMK

Anything that leads us to cause our faces to look away from our Lord and Saviour and to walk away from Him is a concern.

No matter what we face and where we may be we should always know that the place that is best is to be before our Lord and Saviour with our arms outstretched pouring our hearts out before Him and confessing His Love for us and our Love for Him.

God wants us to be refined to produce His Glory in us.

There will be an Apostasy but there will also be those who do not walk in the dark but in the Light and these will shine in that apostasy for others to know what to do and where to go.

Thank you God for your Son and your Holy Spirit of Truth and for your Holy Word that was given to us by your people Israel.

Thank you that you showed us Gentiles Mercy and grafted us into your Olive Tree so that we could become co heirs with the Remnant of Israel that accepted the Messiah.

Together One Body in Christ.

 2015/10/1 1:54Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1583


 Re:

Hi Again,
I see that the discussion drifted off in usual circles(although some good points were made) but I think the point even though granted it comes from a very unusual angle remains,
If the falling away is from the real believers it will be a small percentage of the worlds population and If the falling away is from the world you cant use that one particular scripture in OSAS discussion,
Yours Staff

 2015/10/1 5:57Profile









 Re:


And, once again how can children of the devil fall away?

How can a faithless person depart from the faith?

The falling away in the last days seems to agree with:
1 Timothy 4:1
​ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

 2015/10/1 6:50









 Re:

Is the original point of this thread that the math doesn't work (and what is this math by the way?) or are trying to support OSAS?

Here is someone who is trying very hard (wresting scripture) to support OSAS by saying the "falling away" is about unbelievers.

http://standardbearer.rfpa.org/articles/falling-away-unbelievers

Wouldn't it be considered "evil" to deceive people and give them a false security that once saved, always saved?

Psa_56:5 Every day they wrest my words: all their thoughts are against me for evil.

So many scriptures you can now cut out of your Bible if you believe OSAS. The way most people "cut out" scriptures from their Bible is they explain them away.

"Once saved" does not appear in the Bible as a term or a concept.

"Eternal Security" does not appear as a term or a concept in the context that OSAS people use it.

Religion has always offered Security without any price or personal sacrifice. It offers many things to satisfy man's needs for security, order, emotional highs, the need for being unique and the opportunity to perform and work. These are counterfeits of the enemy. Man wants order so the Adversary's religious system offers uniformity (Mother church dictates conformity to all churches or one church can require conformity from all its members). Even the various religious systems know they need to provide excitement to its adherents and you can see this in Christendom "culture" and even the recent Pope's visit. The religious system is all about "personalities" (idols) and they know very well how to stimulate emotional highs. How do they provide uniqueness? The mantra, "We are the only ones" can describe how they provide for this "feature" to its followers. They create a sense of elitism so if you need personal identity, then you have many exclusive groups you can choose from. Everyone wants to be "somebody", so why not become someone by association and of course we have the best and most right organization. (By all means, don't become someone by association with Jesus Christ).

Man also has a very strong desire to work and perform and if this is what you want then you should definitely join the religious system. "Get involved", "What are you doing for the Lord", "You have such a servant's heart, I know just where you can best be USED", "Are you working for Jesus"? You have found your personal "nirvana" when you have found the "right" church. Only problem is, no one ever finds the right church, they hop to and fro, never obtaining their personal satisfaction.

And man also has a strong desire for being healthy and wealthy. You do know that God wants us to be prosperous (rich) so your favorite religion has a tax system (tithing) with many promises of personal wealth attached to it. (Give and you will get).

Religion is all about the right promises, correct techniques, exact formulas, proper procedures and if you follow all of these (and most importantly, belong to the "right" church), your place in heaven will be guaranteed.

Instead of leading men out of addiction, the religious system provides more of it. Religion is the co-dependent accomplice of Satan, a "partner in crime" to hijack their true salvation.

Satan's playground is religion and he uses the scriptures and the Christian vocabulary against people, steering them towards the Christianity that has been turned into the "Christian religion".

Man wants convenience and Satan thought, "what better way to give man everything he wants than to reduce Jesus Christ and the scriptures to theological formulas, easy believism, moral codes and even a way for them to be involved in politics".

You see, Satan saw how the church grew from martrydom in the 1st century and became a powerful tool of God on earth to turn people to the Lord Jesus. So, he had to come up with a different strategy. Infiltrate the church, bring in mixture and steer men away from the person of Jesus Christ, by giving them what they desire couched in a new "Christian religion".

Wormwood said, "It will be an ill day for us if religion ever vanishes from the earth".

Perverting Christianity is Satan's secret weapon but many would say I was blaspheming by identifying religion as Satan's domain.

God only has one remedy for the religious system. It cannot be reformed or changed. You must COME OUT of HER.

 2015/10/1 9:04
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Who may fall away?

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Not predestinated to be lost of found, but to be "in Christ": According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.

How can I whom the Father keeps me in Christ and most of all Christ in me, "the hope of Glory", be unbirthed of the Son of God whose incorruptible Seed indwells me, be lost?

These in Christ, Jesus says He will not loose those the Father has given Him. Praise God.

We are one as Jesus and the Father are one, which no one can separate, this I know by the Sealed Holy Spirit in me fulfilling His great commission of revealing the Son of God in me and me knowing the Truth.

1 John 3:2-3 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

In Christ, my only hope and Chance of being where He is:

Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2015/10/1 15:21Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1583


 Re:

Hi Julius,
I think youve come clean now finally!You dont want to consider what I have to say as it impinges on your point of view.
My motivation for bringing this subject up has really nothing to do with it,
Whether I want to defend or reject OSAS is not relevant.
Talk about the valid point I have made and dont change the subject!
The Point:
If the falling away is from the church its a small percentage of the worlds population and if its from the world then you cant use that one particular scripture in the OSAS discussion.
Yours Staff

 2015/10/2 9:58Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by staff on 2015/10/2 9:58:42
.
.
.
The Point:
If the falling away is from the church its a small percentage of the worlds population and if its from the world then you cant use that one particular scripture in the OSAS discussion.
Yours Staff



Since those who will be saved is a small percentage of the world's population then of course those who fall away are also a small percentage of the world's population.

You say, "IF" the falling away is from the world?

I understand that you think the scriptures are ambiguous regarding WHO the "falling away" is referring to? So, you can only posit a hypothetical question.

I don't think the scriptures are ambiguous on this subject, but since you do then yes, as a hypothetical, it would be a small percentage.

In either case it is a small percentage as the majority of men will perish. Scripture is not ambiguous about that.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT.

 2015/10/2 10:17
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1583


 Re:

Hi Julius,
That wasnt that hard was it?
The percentage of the people falling away compares to the worlds population is small.
Can we then say the falling away is not of much significance to the Non Believer(world)
?Except that this reletively "small event" somehow it has to come before the man of sin is revealed.Why is that?
How could such a relitively small event have such an effect?

The Scripture says that you quoted below only mentions enter
The Strait Gate and doesnt mention that once you enter you can go back out and it doesnt mention that when you find the gate you can loose it again!So if you are taking the broad way literally then you have to take the strait way literally too in order to be even handed.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT
Yours Staff

 2015/10/2 14:38Profile
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1644
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

Staff -- honest question to you my brother.

If you surely do not know, I'll honor that in love.

If you think you know (or think you don't), say so. Also, will be honored in love.

Question: Is the "apostosia" about which Paul writes a departure from the faith by those who profess to be Christians?

Yes or No or "I think I know" or "I think I don't know". Feel free to elaborate as you wish, please. I'm not trying to paint you into a corner. I am genuinely confused by your posts on this. I want to understand. Please don't ask questions I'm not asking. Please answer this question, and with yes/no/I think I know/I think I don't know.

I am hopeful that I can understand from your answer to that specific question what you are driving at regarding OSAS. Because, right now, I have no earthly idea.


_________________
Tim

 2015/10/2 15:07Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by staff on 2015/10/2 14:38:55

Hi Julius,
That wasn't that hard was it?
The percentage of the people falling away compares to the worlds population is small.
Can we then say the falling away is not of much significance to the Non Believer(world)
?Except that this relatively "small event" somehow it has to come before the man of sin is revealed.Why is that?
How could such a relatively small event have such an effect?

The Scripture says that you quoted below only mentions enter
The Strait Gate and doesn't mention that once you enter you can go back out and it doesn't mention that when you find the gate you can loose it again!So if you are taking the broad way literally then you have to take the strait way literally too in order to be even handed.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT
Yours Staff



aahhh, you are very tricky.

If I did not know better your "word gymnastics" would tie me up like a pretzel. Just because the falling away seems small to the world (and why are they paying attention), it is still too great for the Church. Whoever said the "Falling Away" was supposed to be significant to the Non-Believer? Of course, it is not supposed to be significant. They wouldn't even know about it.

The significance for the Non-Believer that should concern them is their own impending doom and destruction. Being part of the majority will give them little comfort.

Thessalonians is written to the Church, and my sense from the Holy Spirit is that the "falling away" will not be a small event to the Church, at all. Why would the Holy Spirit have even mentioned it, then? Indeed, it is already happening and as I look around at Christianity, I am grieved for the masses of people who call themselves Christians (and are very sincere about it), to be as deceived as they are about the basic foundation and understanding of being born-again. By their fruits ye shall know them.

Staff, your persistence in this would be commendable if it was not so baffling as to the "why" of your point?

"MANY" will enter the broad gate, and "FEW" will enter the strait gate. Broad is the way that leadeth to destruction.

 2015/10/2 16:05





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