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Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266

 Re: Apostasy

Here is a small example of Apostasy in the churches today
It is ok to worship allah and the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob at the same time and together in the same building with the Koran and the Bible sitting next to each other.

The Bible states that Jesus is the Son of God and that God is the Father.

The Koran states it is blasphemy to declare that Jesus is the Son and God is the Father.

And these churches say that they are one and the same and that we should just be nice.

Is that not Apostasy??

John himself declared that the Spirit of the Antichrist is he who Denies the Son and the Father.

Fornication and Adultery is now equal in the church as in the world.

Is that not Apostasy?

Apostasy is to leave the Teaching of ones Doctrine or religion and in our case it is to leave the Truth of the words of Christ and of God and Sin against God and our bodies.

Did we truly lay down our lives Submit to our God and King and take up our cross or do we live a lie and just take what our flesh desires??

 2015/9/29 16:46Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707


Hi budgie, I agree that apostasy is rampant in the whole world. I also agree that we are to listen to Paul and our Lord' words. We must be articulate in how we listen, and understand whom Jesus and Paul were speaking to.

There is a difference in Jesus speaking to Israel and Paul speaking to the Body of Christ His Church and or Israel. Israel is still steeped in their works oriented salvation. The body of Christ is completely dependent on Grace by Faith and those given to Christ by the Father, be they Jew or Gentile. I am a son of the Father by His Grace through my faith which is of Him and not my own. Jesus Christ is birthed in me and I am now the Isreal of God by faith not by works. Separating this Israel of works of the Law and the Israel of God by Faith and whom is being spoken to by the Son of God and Paul the apostle of Christ in you, the how of glory is a very weary thing, but the Holy Spirit it ever separating the two for the son of God by the Christ that is in them.

Thus the rapture and Jesus seated on the throne of David. One in the clouds and the other on this earth.

In Christ: Phillip


 2015/9/29 18:13Profile


We can see in Peter's example, though he was numbered with the "Israel of God by Faith", he was walking on thin ice. Paul warns us about beginning in the Spirit and then switching to perfecting ourselves in the flesh (which is unbelief).

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

 2015/9/29 18:29

Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266

 Re: apostasy and revealing of son of perdition

I think Paul describes well the Apostasy in the same letter that he mentioned the word Apostasy

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Apostasy is to love unrighteousness and to not believe Truth

Paul ties in the Apostasy with the Son of Perdition and as Paul says He ties the two events together
The Apostasy will take place at the same time as the Son of Perdition who Jesus will destroy at the time when He Comes and gathers us to himself.

The First Resurrection.

Yes there are many antichrists as John declared but there will be an Antichrist/Son of Perdition that exists at the Time of the Coming of Christ and praise God Jesus will destroy this Antichrist and bind satan for 1000 years and Jesus will sit on the Throne in Jerusalem and rule in Peace and Righteousness for 1000 years

Something the Antichrist cannot and will never do.

 2015/9/29 18:39Profile

Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1601


Hi Heydave,
I agree that the angle I am taking is Unusual to say the least but I believe it is important none the less and even in terms of Christian debate i am not disagreeing its not bizarre.
I am trying to stick rigidly to my point rather than discuss other aspects of the discussion as they have been covered over and over.
I will say this.
It all reminds me so much of the Neils Bohr v Albert Einstein debate on Quantuam Mechanics.
Neil Bohr although although "away with the fairies" according to many versus "the level headed brilliant" Einstein.
The only problem was Einstein was brilliantly wrong!and Bohrs ended up been proven correct.Despite some the fact that some of the church are away with the fairies are they in fact going to be correct.
Yours Staff

 2015/9/29 18:48Profile

Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3421
This world is not my home anymore.


I listened to Derek Prince yesterday and he said....
"Give us Barabbas and crucify Jesus!" And at the end of this age, the human race will do the something similar. They’ll say, “We don’t want this Christ, give us the leader of our choice. This brilliant, talented, supernaturally empowered man, we want him.”

And they got Barabbas. They also said, “We have no king but Caesar.” An amazing thing for the Jews to say.

And for 19 centuries they've been ruled by the Caesars and the Barabbas' has been turned loose on them.

The same thing will happen to the human race, we're going to get what we choose. Those of us who choose Jesus will be under His gov't. Those of us who reject Jesus will be under the gov't of the antichrist.

I found this interesting and think that it makes sense! Has anyone else thought of this?


 2015/9/29 21:56Profile

Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266

 Re: To Lysa

Well said Lysa and sadly how true

Us Gentiles sadly have made just as many mistakes as Israel
We have made idols and spend little time in His presence, we are not living sacrifices.
God have Mercy on us and forgive us.
We certainly have not shown the same Mercy to Israel as God had shown to us when He grafted us into the Commonwealth of Israel.
We have boasted against the very Branches we were grafted into.
The History of what the Gentile Church has done against Gods Beloved is disgusting and atrocious.
We have not brought any Jealousy to Israel as God had commanded.

The History of what the Church has done to Israel since the Gentiles were grafted into the Commonwealth of Israel must break Gods heart.

It is true, all have fallen short of the Glory of God, Jew and Gentile, we cannot boast.
Thank God for His Mercy to us all and for His unconditional Love

There are Churches today that has accepted Homosexuality, even ordaining Homosexual Pastors, the Church is accepting all religions and all sin amongst the members
These same Churches are allowing the world into the Church rather than the Church into the world.

Pastor David Wilkerson Vision is starting to be fulfilled.

I can understand why God says that the Bride has not made herself ready until Revelations 19 and that is because the saints are covered in filth rather than righteousness.

God have Mercy on us and help us to truly lay down our lives of filth and surrender all of our fleshly desires so that Christ may truly rule all aspects of our lives.
We all have dark black closets in our temples that we have not yet allowed Christ into.
Jesus help us to not deceive ourselves.

 2015/9/29 23:15Profile


by TMK on 2015/9/29 9:26:38

It is really funny how nuanced and how many variations of end times views there are. For example, I was tracking with you Lisa until you said "when the antichrist is revealed" so you must believe in a literal future person who will fit the bill as THE antichrist and will require literal marks on hands or foreheads etc.

I don't believe that, but do believe there is a definite antichrist system in play, but it's been ongoing since the time of the apostles. I wonder if there is something instructive in the fact that there are as many end times views as there are Christians- because everyone has their own little nuance.

Perhaps it means that God does not really want us to know?


Do you believe in a literal return of Jesus Christ? I think you do. Remember, Satan is the great impostor, counterfeiter, and masquerader and he will attempt (as he always has done), to counterfeit Christ's coming.

Let's ask ourselves why the Lord has given us so much information and warnings about Satan and the AntiChrist? Could it be that He does not want us to be deceived? Can we be deceived?

How much of God's activity on earth is Satan counterfeiting? Some, half or all of it? I think it can be shown from scripture that he counterfeits every aspect of God's activity and you can corroborate this in everyday life and through the reading of history books. First, we know that God's purpose is different from Satan's purpose. It is always good to ask what is God's purpose as you read the scriptures for in all of His purposes you will be able to spot a counterfeiter superimposing his purposes as the purposes of God.

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

This contains within it the example of Satan masquerading as one with great power and perfection (what he sees in God and coveted for himself). "and seven crowns upon his heads" for Satan counterfeits himself as that which he lusts after. And what does he lust after but the perfection of Kingly power as he becomes an impostor of the "King of Kings and Lord of Lords" (Rev 19:12,16). In all of his rebellion, the scriptures do show us he only has a limited effect as "his tail (only) drew the third part of the stars of heaven" (12:4).

My point? Satan is going to counterfeit the return of the Lord Jesus and the Scriptures show this. Are you watching and praying?

He will bring forth a counterfeit "LAMB", but it will speak as a "dragon" (Satan). True believers will know the difference but those who don't know the Lord Jesus will come under it's power (religious bewitching) to worship the first beast.

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; AND HE HAD TWO HORNS LIKE A LAMB (an obvious attempt to portray itself as Christ-like. Religion often seeks to portray itself as Christ or His Vicar, Representative), and he spake as a dragon. Looks like a lamb but speaks as a dragon.

Matt 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

The Beast (of Religion) even makes "fire come down from heaven". An obvious mockery, of Pentecost, (but only Christians will see it for what it is) and as the "Lamb" is expected to do, will perform "great wonders".

Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Every genuine supernatural expression of Christ will be counterfeited with false Pentecostal "signs" and "gifts".

Religion is idolatrous and the intent of religion is idolatrous and we see this intent revealed in Rev 13:14 when people are deceived to make an image (icon, idol) to the beast. But Jesus Christ is the image of God (Heb 1:3) and the Beast of Religion cannot accept that and will kill many who do not worship the beast (Rev 13:15). We see this repeated through the centuries, too. Religion will not tolerate anyone that refuses it's tenets.

What are some things that he counterfeit?
1) The Church counterfeited by Religion. Notice how Religion has succumbed to the lust for power. You can see Satan's hoofprints as he functions within religious men as he disguises himself as an “angel of light” (II Cor. 11:14)

2) He attempts to persuade Christians to adopt his tactics of warfare but his warfare is couched in the religious term of "just war". He convinces earthbound "Christians" with wisdom from below on how the "good" must fight "evil ", (usually those Christians who do not submit to Beast of Religion).

3) By the end of the 1st century the Devil had infiltrated the church of Jesus Christ getting them to fight against the "evil". As he infiltrated the church of Jesus Christ he slowly and methodically worked his strategy on Christians to engage in conduct, behavior and beliefs that opposed the dynamic life of Christ. This is the spirit of Antichrist working in men. Opposing the activity of Christ is being "against" Christ. This spirit of Anti-Christ has been working in the church since the end of the 1st century, permeating all the "waters" (Rev 17:1) which are people. (Rev 17:15)

1Jn_2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

If there were MANY antichrists back then, there are many more, today (simple math). Look at today's Christendom, it is troubling for many of us and unfortunately, many today embrace antichrist activity thinking it is the activity of Christ and consequently, many shall embrace the false Christ who has returned for them.

Rev_4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a RAINBOW round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
Rev_10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a RAINBOW was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

I find it a little more than just "interesting" that Satan co-ops every Biblical symbol of Christ as if he is actually trying to wipe out any and all references to Him and substitute Christ with himself.

And I also find it more than interesting that the symbol for New Age religion is the rainbow as well as LGBT.

The rainbow is symbolic in Genesis of the Lord's faithfulness and mercy.

"By Way of Deception" is a book about a Mossad agent (Victor Ostrovsky) who left the Mossad after years of service and then blew the whistle on the Mossad describing the "tricks of the trade" in detail regarding many of their operations and way of doing things, including their various methods of entrapment. "Lion of Judah" is a fictionalized account of what Ostrovsky could not say in the book, "By Way of Deception". In the book, he tells how the Mossad would set up "store fronts" which were businesses for all intents and purposes as far as the public knew, but in actuality was only a deception for darker operations.

Religion is Satan's "store front". Looks good on the outside but much darker operations are afoot. Religion is his organized counterfeit to deceive men. Religion and the antichrist spirit accompanying it is responsible for more Christian deaths by martyrdom than any other agent.

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on THEM THAT DWELL ON THE EARTH?

Take note of that phrase "Them that dwell on the earth". You could call them earth dwellers. Who are we? Who are the saints of God? We are "citizens of heaven", (Phil 3:20).

And the "earth dwellers", who are they? They are the members of Satan's "Store Front", the religionists are the earth dwellers. They are false apostles, deceived and deceitful workers. Jesus ran into them quite a bit.

2Cor 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ

Contrast the religionists and their "store fronts" with God's "Hidden Ones", citizens of heaven. God's people are spoken of as "hidden" and don't seek to make themselves known, but rather seek to make Christ known and serve their fellow man, even unto death. On the contrary, the earth dwellers do everything in their power to not be hidden. In many cases, a lot of "pomp and circumstance". Fancy buildings, plush surroundings, fancy cars, 1,000 dollar suits or beautiful religious robes, best seats, etc, etc. They take advantage of their fellow man and serve the god of self, their father, the Devil.

Psa_83:3 They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.

The war that you find yourself in, the spiritual battle we all encounter is the Counterfeiter seeking to undermine the life of Christ in you. As the "god of this world", (2 Cor 4:4) and the "Destroyer", (1 Cor 10:10) the Adversary, seeking whom he may devour" (1 Pet 5:8).

He is the Thief, that comes to kill, steal and destroy (John 10:10) and he does it by subterfuge, and deceit, masquerading as an angel of light.

If you look at the state of Christendom today, in prayer and with spiritual eyes, you might see that a slaughter is coming. That is exactly what I see and in fact there is much "blood already in the streets" (Eze 28:23).

MANY shall be offended, MANY FALSE PROPHETS shall arise and shall DECEIVE MANY.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
MANY shall come in Christ's name: and deceive MANY
Mat 24:5 For MANY shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive MANY.

ALL,ALL,ALL in Asia turned away from PAUL.
2Tim 1:15 This thou knowest, that ALL they which are in Asia be TURNED AWAY FROM ME; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

NO ONE would stand with Paul, ALL MEN FORSOOK Him.
2Tim 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but ALL MEN FORSOOK ME: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.

I wish to God that a pre-trib rapture was real, but I have never seen any basis of reality in the scriptures for that doctrine. I hear the trumpet sounding, do you? It is far past time for the Bride to make herself ready.

Matt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 2015/9/30 0:11

Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266

 Re: To Julius21

Well said Julius21

It is so vital to be grounded in the Word and in the Doctrines of God, Jesus, Paul and John and all of the Prophets.

Perfect Harmony of Doctrine and Truth when we align ourselves and believe in what they declare rather than our own beliefs.

On the DVD Left Behind or Led Astray $10,000 was offered to anyone that could give one verse to clearly support pretrib and not one person could provide one clear verse to prove that Jesus was coming before the Tribulation and not one clear verse that shows a Rapture that takes place before the Resurrection and also before the Tribulation.
Paul himself stated that Jesus will NOT come and will NOT gather us to Himself until the Apostasy and until the Son of Perdition is revealed and that Jesus Destroys this Son of Perdition at that same Coming, Paul even said to not listen to any spirit or letter or word that speaks against that very Truth.
The head of Pretrib Thomas Ice is even now declaring that the Apostasy is actually the pretrib rapture that means that the Pretrib rapture is in actual fact the apostasy by his own words, he is not the only one, there are many others declaring this strange doctrine that is against the word of God.

 2015/9/30 0:48Profile


Hi Budgie,

Just to be clear, Ice is saying that the Pre-Trib rapture is also the Apostasy meaning that whoever does not make it in the Rapture, will be considered to have apostasized?

Sad. He would be considered a false prophet as foretold by Jesus in Matt 24 and a deceitful worker that Paul spoke of in 2Cor 11:13.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

When a doctrine becomes an idol in one's heart, they will do and say anything to make that doctrine fit so it survives any attempt at being overthrown. They must MAKE IT survive for they have based their entire life (reputation) on it surviving. It has become their life.

 2015/9/30 1:18

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