| Re: |
The Lord said in the first place that there will not be many that find eternal life.
"Few there be that find it".
Matt_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
| 2015/9/28 16:08|
| Re: |
I really cannot see your argument. Your so called apostasy math has no bearing whatsoever in the OSAS debate and no logic in regard to the rapture question. I think only you know what you are trying to prove.
It seems a bizarre and extraordinary straining effort to find a way of dimissing these positions. Is that because there is no scriptural basis for what you believe?
That there will be an apostasy before the Day of the Lord and the rapture is clear in the 2 Thessalonians passage. What that apostasy will look like is open for debate, but it is a fact.
It is interesting that you put up two positions to defend, OSAS and pre-trib rapture. I personally believe that these are the two major doctrines that are misleading the majority of sincere evangelical Christians today. I also think we are seeing these false doctrines being challanged by biblical truth and many coming to see the error of them. I speak as one of those who over the years have moved from those positions I was once taught and held to myself based on reading the scriptures more carefully.
| 2015/9/28 17:49||Profile|
| Re: |
If it is Christians that fall then it will be a small percentage"
But you have not answered my question-- how do non Christians "fall away?"
I don't think the term "apostasy" can be properly applied to unbelievers. Therefore, it seems your argument is based on a false premise.
| 2015/9/28 18:24||Profile|
| Re: |
I think i didnt make my point clear enough.
I didnt say that apostasy was for the unbeliever.
I said if it is for the believer which many people say it is then as a percentage of the worlds population it will be small.
My point isnt been made on the premise that an unbeliever can fall away.
| 2015/9/28 19:40||Profile|
| Re: |
Look at arguement again,
Firstly I never mentioned the rapture at all so I dont know how you thought it did.
It does have a bearing on the osas.
I know exactly what im trying to prove.
From the very start I stated there would be an apostasy because i knew someone wouldnt read the post properly and think I wasnt saying that their wouldnt.
The First Thing :Im saying is:
If The Falling away is from the Church(genuine believers)
then it will be a small percentage of the worlds population.
The Second Thing:
If it not from the church then you cannot use the "falling away" scripture to prove that OSAS is wrong.You would have to take that out of the arguement and pursue it with other scripture.
| 2015/9/28 19:53||Profile|
| Re: |
Yeah thats true but that has nothing to do with the specific falling away we are talking about,
| 2015/9/28 19:55||Profile|
| Re: |
Bro., you told TMK that you didn't say the apostasy was for unbelievers. But, then you said in your First Thing and Second Thing "if" the falling away is from the chirch and "if" it isn't. I am trying hard to follow your thoughts.
TMK has a completely valid point. Unbelievers do not "fall away" or depart from the faith because they are not in the faith. So, there is no "if" to the idea of who apostasy applies to the church and people in it who profess a faith in Christ.
Will it be a small percentage of the world's population? I would say it will be but then I ask why it matters. I, too, have pondered it in the past a little. But, Scripturally I find no reason for the percentage to matter. Where percentages are important for us to know, God says so. (Tithe, Sabbath--maybe, one third of this or that wiped out in cataclysm in Revelation, pop into mind as examples). He did not, as far as I can tell, specify that as a proportion of world population that X% of the world would fall away.
The fact that it MUST be believers and not unbelievers who fall away makes the Second Thing a moot point.
| 2015/9/28 20:44||Profile|
| Re: |
People fall away from the Lord in every century. We have many testimonies and stories about it. The apostle Paul mentioned several in his time. The fact that there is special mention about it in the end times has lead many to believe it will be a great falling away. "Great" does not always have to equate to numbers, either. It can refer to something astounding or awesome or even very surprising or catastrophic.
But, all that is besides the point since that term does not exist in the NT.
What isn't "besides the point" is the teaching of OSAS and the Pre-trib Rapture, regarded as false teaching by many which has given the church a false security and led many into a slumber (spiritual sleep, Mt 25).
I have to agree with HeyDave on this one.
| 2015/9/28 21:35|
| Re: Interesting topic|
Here is the meaning of the word
Origin & history
From Latin apostasia, from Ancient Greek ἀποστασία (apostasia, "defection, revolt"), from ἀφίστημι (aphistēmi, "I withdraw, revolt"), from ἀπό (apo, "from") + ἵστημι (histēmi, "I stand")
a* pos"ta* sy
The renunciation of a belief or set of beliefs.
1871, James Anthony Froude, History of England from the Fall of Wolsey to the Death of Elizabeth, page 394
The King of Navarre suddenly abandoned his party and went over to the Catholics.
The explanation of his apostasy was as simple as it was base : Navarre had no confidence in the success of his cause, and he cared little in his heart for anything but women and vanity.
Specifically, the renunciation of one's religion or faith.
(renunciation of religion or faith): backsliding, conversion, deconversion
(renunciation of a set of beliefs): defection, disaffection, estrangement
It is used in the following verses in the NT and OT in the Septuagint
apostasía; gen. apostasías, fem. noun from aphístēmi (G868), to depart. Departure, apostasy. Occurs in Act_21:21 translated "forsake" and in 2Th_2:3, "a falling away"; Sept.: 2Ch_29:19; Jer_29:32.
It is interesting because the focus appears to be that the person is departing from Truth especially when you see how it is used in the OT.
apostasy - renunciation of one's religion or faith
We see this happening today just as it was in the days of the Christ and of the beginning of the Church.
1Ti_4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
2Ti 4:15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.
1Ti_6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
1Ti_6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. The first to Timothy was written from Laodicea, which is the chiefest city of Phrygia Pacatiana.
Only God knows the heart of a man.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
| 2015/9/28 22:26||Profile|
| Wesley's Notes for 2 Thessalonians 2:3|
I found this interesting
Wesley's Notes for 2 Thessalonians 2:3
2:3 Unless the falling away - From the pure faith of the gospel, come first. This began even in the apostolic age. But the man of sin, the son of perdition - Eminently so called, is not come yet. However, in many respects, the Pope has an indisputable claim to those titles. He is, in an emphatical sense, the man of sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled, the son of perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers, destroyed innumerable souls, and will himself perish everlastingly. He it is that opposeth himself to the emperor, once his rightful sovereign; and that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped - Commanding angels, and putting kings under his feet, both of whom are called gods in scripture; claiming the highest power, the highest honour; suffering himself, not once only, to be styled God or vice - god. Indeed no less is implied in his ordinary title, Most Holy Lord, or, Most Holy Father. So that he sitteth - Enthroned. In the temple of God - Mentioned #Rev 11:1|. Declaring himself that he is God - Claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone.
| 2015/9/29 0:02||Profile|