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staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1547


 The Great "Falling Away".The Maths doesnt Work!!

Hi All
In a previous post I posted something I didnt think much about before and this came to my mind.

Firstly Let Me Say The Great Falling Away Is Going to happen and secondly im using arbitrary Maths to bring my point across.However I have been generous with my figures.

According to wiki their are about 2.2billion Christians on the planet(Who say they are).Out of 7billion On The Earth
If lets say only 70% of that 2.2 are actually Christians that would make it 1.5 billion.
Again if the falling away comes from that section of real believers(which is arbitrarily 1.5billion)
If for instance the great falling away from that 1.5billion is 70% that means that 1 billion Christians will fall away.
Which as precentage of the worlds population is just 14%.
(althought my figures are estimates Ive been very generous with my perecentages the figure is more likely to be much smaller)

In light of this can the great falling away be from the church? or is it falling away from Godly restraints in the world or is it both?
The maths just does not work if it is from the church and would deal a blow to such beliefs "as you can loose your salvation" and "post tribulation views"
Its a little difficult to get my point across by posting so I hope you can understand that all Im saying if the falling away is from the church its going to be so small as not to qualify as great

Yours Staff

 2015/9/28 7:05Profile
Lysa
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3420
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: The Great "Falling Away".The Maths doesnt Work!!

Quote:
staff wrote:
The Great "Falling Away".The Maths doesnt Work!!

In light of this can the great falling away be from the church? or is it falling away from Godly restraints in the world or is it both?
The maths just does not work if it is from the church and would deal a blow to such beliefs "as you can loose your salvation" and "post tribulation views"


The Bible never qualified it as a GREAT falling away. I couldn’t find one version that said that word, King James Version doesn’t say it and neither do 10 of the other versions I checked.

KJV: “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” 2 Thess 2:3

Your numbers do add up because you are using your human mind and human understanding to try to understand the vastness of who GOD says is a believer and a Christian. I surely can't and won't step up to that judgment seat.

But anyway, back to your question.... my opinion is that it would be a spiritual act of rebellion against God and if that includes church, then it would include church. Just as Job’s wife told him, “Do you still hold fast your integrity? Curse God and die.” But how many Believers will respond, ““You speak as one of the foolish person would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?”

Staff, you are correct about one thing because the Bible is correct!! The “falling away” is coming and THEN the man of sin will be revealed and Believers need to walk closer to Him than they’ve ever walked.

God bless,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2015/9/28 8:24Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5621
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 Re:

How do non-Christians "fall away?"

They are already "away."


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Todd

 2015/9/28 8:25Profile









 Re:


by Lysa on 2015/9/28 8:24:13

The Bible never qualified it as a GREAT falling away. I couldn’t find one version that said that word, King James Version doesn’t say it and neither do 10 of the other versions I checked.


You beat me to it, Lysa. You are right, the KJV does not say "Great" Falling Away. Other versions do not have that, either.


 2015/9/28 8:55
dolfan
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Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1634
Alabama

 Re:

I'll do you one better.

Thomas Ice argues -- quite recently and in response to some valid exegetical/linguistic arguments against a pre-trib rapture -- that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 "apostasia" or "falling away" actually means "departure" and refers to the rapture itself. He does this because it absolutely forces a rapture-then-revelation-of-man-of-sin timeline to the pre-trib rapture argument.

This argument is not well known until Piper's influential voice came out publicly in support of a post-trib view of things. Ice felt like he had to respond because Piper is just that influential among Baptists in particular and evangelicals more generally. There is a genuine battle of ideas and biblical interpretation happening among our brethren, and it is not a bad thing. But, personally, the argument Ice makes is novel; it is not one that has been widely made before and no one among the popular voices of the different eschatology camps took it up until Piper spoke as a post-tribber. Now, some of the pre-trib camp are looking at each other and nodding as if they'd always thought "apostasia" in 2 Thess. 2:3 means "departure" (i.e., as an inexplicably used synonym for "harpazo" or "catching away") instead of "falling away".

It reminds me of the argument that the close of canon was the "perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10. When Pentecostalism was making some movement across the land by the 1950s, certain of our brethren were so dead set against it but they had no single verse that once and for all put an end to the debate about spiritual gifts (especially, and at that time almost exclusively, tongues). In 1951, possibly for the first time anywhere in print, W.E. Vine (he of the Expository Dictionary) printed a commentary on 1 Corinthians that interpreted "perfect" in 1 Cor. 13:10 as being the close of the Scriptural canon. Others before him may have believed it, but the record of their writings seemingly does not support an earlier history of this as a serious thought. By 1963, a handful of seminary professors latched onto the idea, and a serious dissertation followed in 1967 by a man named Robert Gromacki. By the early 1970s, the idea that "perfect" meant the completion of canon was virtually canon itself in the Baptist seminaries in particular. Thomas Ice, it seems to me, is trying really hard to replicate this phenomenon with his "apostasia" = "rapture" view of 2 Thess. 2:3.



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Tim

 2015/9/28 9:40Profile
TMK
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 Re:

From Matthew Henry's Commentary on this passage (Julius you should like this):
---------------------
"In these words the apostle confutes the error against which he had cautioned them, and gives the reasons why they should not expect the coming of Christ as just at hand. There were several events previous to the second coming of Christ; in particular, he tells them there would be,

I. A general apostasy, there would come a falling away first, v. 3. By this apostasy we are not to understand a defection in the state, or from civil government, but in spiritual or religious matters, from sound doctrine, instituted worship and church government, and a holy life. The apostle speaks of some very great apostasy, not only of some converted Jews or Gentiles, but such as should be very general, though gradual, and should give occasion to the revelation of rise of antichrist, that man of sin. This, he says (v. 5), he had told them of when he was with them, with design, no doubt, that they should not take offence nor be stumbled at it. And let us observe that no sooner was Christianity planted and rooted in the world than there began to be a defection in the Christian church. It was so in the Old-Testament church; presently after any considerable advance made in religion there followed a defection: soon after the promise there was revolting; for example, soon after men began to call upon the name of the Lord all flesh corrupted their way,-soon after the covenant with Noah the Babel-builders bade defiance to heaven,-soon after the covenant with Abraham his seed degenerated in Egypt,-soon after the Israelites were planted in Canaan, when the first generation was worn off, they forsook God and served Baal,-soon after God's covenant with David his seed revolted, and served other gods,-soon after the return out of captivity there was a general decay of piety, as appears by the story of Ezra and Nehemiah; and therefore it was no strange thing that after the planting of Christianity there should come a falling away.
II. A revelation of that man of sin, that is (v. 3), antichrist would take his rise from this general apostasy. The apostle afterwards speaks of the revelation of that wicked one (v. 8), intimating the discovery which should be made of his wickedness, in order to his ruin: here he seems to speak of his rise, which should be occasioned by the general apostasy he had mentioned, and to intimate that all sorts of false doctrines and corruptions should centre in him. Great disputes have been as to who or what is intended by this man of sin and son of perdition: and, if it be not certain that the papal power and tyranny are principally or only intended, yet this is plain, What is here said does very exactly agree thereto. For observe,
1. The names of this person, or rather the state and power here spoken of. He is called the man of sin, to denote his egregious wickedness; not only is he addicted to, and practises, wickedness himself, but he also promotes, countenances, and commands sin and wickedness in others; and he is the son of perdition, because he himself is devoted to certain destruction, and is the instrument of destroying many others both in soul and body. These names may properly be applied, for these reasons, to the papal state; and thereto agree also,
2. The characters here given, v. 4.
(1.) That he opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or is worshipped; and thus have the bishops of Rome not only opposed God's authority, and that of the civil magistrates, who are called gods, but have exalted themselves above God and earthly governors, in demanding greater regard to their commands than to the commands of God or the magistrate.
(2.) As God, he sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. As God was in the temple of old, and worshipped there, and is in and with his church now, so the antichrist here mentioned is some usurper of God's authority in the Christian church, who claims divine honours; and to whom can this better apply than to the bishops of Rome, to whom the most blasphemous titles have been given, as Dominus Deus noster papa-Our Lord God the pope; Deus alter in terrâ-Another God on earth; Idem est dominium Dei et papae-The dominion of God and the pope is the same?
3. His rise is mentioned, v. 6, 7. Concerning this we are to observe two things:-
(1.) There was something that hindered or withheld, or let, until it was taken away. This is supposed to be the power of the Roman empire, which the apostle did not think fit to mention more plainly at that time; and it is notorious that, while this power continued, it prevented the advances of the bishops of Rome to that height of tyranny to which soon afterwards they arrived.
(2.) This mystery of iniquity was gradually to arrive at its height; and so it was in effect that the universal corruption of doctrine and worship in the Romish church came in by degrees, and the usurpation of the bishops of Rome was gradual, not all at once; and thus the mystery of iniquity did the more easily, and almost insensibly, prevail. The apostle justly calls it a mystery of iniquity, because wicked designs and actions were concealed under false shows and pretences, at least they were concealed from the common view and observation. By pretended devotion, superstition and idolatry were advanced; and, by a pretended zeal for God and his glory, bigotry and persecution were promoted. And he tells us that this mystery of iniquity did even then begin, or did already work. While the apostles were yet living, the enemy came, and sowed tares; there were then the deeds of the Nicolaitans, persons who pretended zeal for Christ, but really opposed him. Pride, ambition, and worldly interest of church-pastors and church-rulers, as in Diotrephes and others, were the early working of the mystery of iniquity, which, by degrees, came to that prodigious height which has been visible in the church of Rome.
4. The fall or ruin of the antichristian state is declared, v. 8. The head of this antichristian kingdom is called that wicked one, or that lawless person who sets up a human power in competition with, and contradiction to, the divine dominion and power of the Lord Jesus Christ; but, as he would thus manifest himself to be the man of sin, so the revelation or discovery of this to the world would be the sure presage and the means of his ruin. The apostle assures the Thessalonians that the Lord would consume and destroy him; the consuming of him precedes his final destruction, and that is by the Spirit of his mouth, by his word of command; the pure word of God, accompanied with the Spirit of God, will discover this mystery of iniquity, and make the power of antichrist to consume and waste away; and in due time it will be totally and finally destroyed, and this will be by the brightness of Christ's coming. Note, The coming of Christ to destroy the wicked will be with peculiar glory and eminent lustre and brightness.
5. The apostle further describes the reign and rule of this man of sin. Here we are to observe,
(1.) The manner of his coming, or ruling, and working: in general, that it is after the example of Satan, the grand enemy of souls, the great adversary of God and man. He is the great patron of error and lies, the sworn enemy of the truth as it is in Jesus and all the faithful followers of Jesus. More particularly, it is with Satanical power and deceit. A divine power is pretended for the support of this kingdom, but it is only after the working of Satan. Signs and wonders, visions and miracles, are pretended; by these the papal kingdom was first set up, and has all along been kept up, but they have false signs to support false doctrines; and lying wonders, or only pretended miracles that have served their cause, things false in fact, or fraudulently managed, to impose upon the people: and the diabolical deceits with which the antichristian state has been supported are notorious. The apostle calls it all deceivableness of unrighteousness, v. 10. Others may call them pious frauds, but the apostle called them unrighteous and wicked frauds; and, indeed, all fraud (which is contrary to truth) is an impious thing. Many are the subtle artifices the man of sin has used, and various are the plausible pretences by which he had beguiled unwary and unstable souls to embrace false doctrines, and submit to his usurped dominion.
(2.) The persons are described who are his willing subjects, or most likely to become such, v. 10. They are such as love not the truth that they may be saved. They heard the truth (it may be), but they did not love it; they could not bear sound doctrine, and therefore easily imbibed false doctrines; they had some notional knowledge of what was true, but they indulged some powerful prejudices, and so became a prey to seducers. Had they loved the truth, they would have persevered in it, and been preserved by it; but no wonder if they easily parted with what they never had any love to. And of these persons it is said that they perish or are lost; they are in a lost condition, and in danger to be lost for ever. For,
6. We have the sin and ruin of the subjects of antichrist's kingdom declared, v. 11, 12.
(1.) Their sin is this: They believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness: they did not love the truth, and therefore they did not believe it; and, because they did not believe the truth, therefore they had pleasure in unrighteousness, or in wicked actions, and were pleased with false notions. Note, An erroneous mind and vicious life often go together and help forward one another.
(2.) Their ruin is thus expressed: God shall send them strong delusions, to believe a lie. Thus he will punish men for their unbelief, and for their dislike of the truth and love to sin and wickedness; not that God is the author of sin, but in righteousness he sometimes withdraws his grace from such sinners as are here mentioned; he gives them over to Satan, or leaves them to be deluded by his instruments; he gives them up to their own hearts' lusts, and leaves them to themselves, and then sin will follow of course, yea, the worst of wickedness, that shall end at last in eternal damnation. God is just when he inflicts spiritual judgments here, and eternal punishments hereafter, upon those who have no love to the truths of the gospel, who will not believe them, nor live suitably to them, but indulge false doctrines in their minds, and wicked practices in their lives and conversations.


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Todd

 2015/9/28 9:43Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Dolfan

In 1951, possibly for the first time anywhere in print, W.E. Vine (he of the Expository Dictionary) printed a commentary on 1 Corinthians that interpreted "perfect" in 1 Cor. 13:10 as being the close of the Scriptural canon. Others before him may have believed it, but the record of their writings seemingly does not support an earlier history of this as a serious thought. By 1963, a handful of seminary professors latched onto the idea, and a serious dissertation followed in 1967 by a man named Robert Gromacki. By the early 1970s, the idea that "perfect" meant the completion of canon was virtually canon itself in the Baptist seminaries in particular. Thomas Ice, it seems to me, is trying really hard to replicate this phenomenon with his "apostasia" = "rapture" view of 2 Thess. 2:3.



1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

The reasoning for 1 Cor 13:10 never worked because prophecies, and knowledge never ceased, so how could they say tongues ceased? More human logic and I suspect the same for Thomas Ice's reasoning.

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

I remember hearing a Baptist preacher and Rapture enthusiast preach on the Rapture and I asked him how people would get saved if the Holy Spirit pulled out of the world and he said, "There are plenty of Bible stores around and Bibles to guide people to salvation." Most everyone nodded approvingly and I looked around thinking I was in some kind of robot convention. His statement exposed a gross misunderstanding of the work of the Spirit in a man's life during regeneration and the activity of the Spirit in drawing a man to Christ. We have many Bible stores around today, so where is the great harvest? Jesus did not say, build many Bible stores and I will guarantee a great harvest. He said, "no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6).

I have read so many different reasonings (wresting scriptures, 2 Pet 3:16) as men strain to come up with a good sounding doctrine that will convince them they will be escaping before great tribulation.

2Tim_4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

I look at history and see great tribulation in every century. How much greater can tribulation get than having your lands and property confiscated, your children tortured and killed in front of you along with your wife and then you are tortured and killed? This and worse has happened in every century.

 2015/9/28 10:58
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1547


 Re:

Hi Lysa
I think you didnt address the issue though whether its great or not/ If its not great then we need not worry!
The maths doesnt work either way.My maths assumes its great but if it isnt then its not worth thinking about.
The issue is the falling away is within the church only then its a marginal thing,If its the world then people cant be quouting left right and center that verse to prove we can loose our salvation.ITS one or the other'
I know Im correct when it I said the falling away is coming thats why I said,
Yours Staff

 2015/9/28 15:51Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1547


 Re:

Hi Julius
Thats great if it isnt going to be a "great" falling away even better!and if that falling away thats not great is from the Church only isnt great thats even more better!
But we cant have our cake and eat it when it comes to this scripture,
Yours Staff

 2015/9/28 15:58Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1547


 Re:

Hi TMK,
If it is Christians that fall then it will be a small percentage of the worlds population.
Yours Staff

 2015/9/28 16:01Profile





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