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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Going in to darkness

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Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 1089


Re ///, "so has there been to anyone's knowledge a church that preserve and operated in the apostolic traditions left to us ? ///

My thoughts:
To read / know how the tradition / operation of God' intention from the very beginning for the church to be. These people truly abided in Christ.
FULL of the Holy Ghost / live for God was their life / their all in all.
And there was God' presence and power there.

Then, we remember,shortly thereafter, Paul was going about from church
to church,trying to straighten them out, back onto the narrow way,....He told them / preached they / we could not enter the kingdom of God,if they / we do extortion,...adultery immorality..steal,..etc.,..preaching how they / we are to live in he Kingdom of God,or we could not inherit ' the kingdom'.

The gospel was "the gospel of the kingdom of God"

Is it another gospel,..another Jesus ,that is preached now ?
Yes bro. Papa,I too, would love to know where this church is.

Many of the old writers,give us a taste,of this,...that we love.

Will you forgive me for being strong / straight forward in my writings ?

His Word / Truth and a love for it that will not let me go,


 2015/9/3 21:02Profile


Paul's prophetic words still speak.

See what kind of brother, Paul was and how the saints loved him.

Acts 20:29-38
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel. Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all. And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul's neck, and kissed him, Sorrowing most of all for the words which he spake, that they should see his face no more. And they accompanied him unto the ship.

 2015/9/3 22:08

Joined: 2007/1/15
Posts: 365


Oh yes, bro, y'all were!
Any gathering where the Head is exalted and His life flows through all present is His church.

A particularly precious experience in the previously described house church comes to mind.
Each person was encouraged to bring forth songs with which we worshipped the Lord. Well, a little 5 year old girl started singing a song we all knew and I tell you, even the elder found he couldn't share the message he had prepared as we prayed and sang that one song for the next one and half hours or so!
The Spirit of supplication came to our aid in prayer that day.

It was just plain glorious.
The Lord literally lifted us into His Presence through that little member of the body.


 2015/9/3 23:50Profile

Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1508
Dothan, Alabama


Could it be as Paul's prophetic words allude, that we have received a church that is founded on heresies so deeply embedded in its foundation so as to be the counterfeit church spoken of in Revelation as the whore of Babylon who is drunk on the blood of the saints?
Could it be that the religious-political marriage shortly after the waining of the Apostolic church was the birthing of another Ishmael?
Could what we are bearing witness to today be the very nation of its inhabitants who make war with "Issac" the true church and manufacturing for itself the power that otherwise only comes from God?
A modern day Tower of Babel complete with beauties, entertainments, idolatry and heaps upon heaps of self effort but devoid of real divine substance, power or purity?

Edit for spelling


 2015/9/4 3:13Profile


Well said, JFW. The counterfeit church was birthed in the Garden, when Satan came on the scene and told Adam and Eve they "would be like God", if they ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam and Eve proceeded to "cover their sin" (themselves) with leaves (a type of their own righteousness). Then Cain, offered up the work of his hands to God (a type of the self-justification of fleshly work). And this counterfeit "church" runs from Genesis to Revelation. Esau, Aaron's sons, (offering up strange fire), Saul, Absalom, Jezebel, Ahab, and so on, to this present day. The tares have been sown amongst the wheat but the true sheep know the Master's voice. Satan is the "shepherd" of the false church and though he hides himself, Believers can spot him.

 2015/9/4 9:05

Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


RE: ///Could it be that the religious-political marriage shortly after the waining of the Apostolic church was the birthing of another Ishmael?///

That was around 300.
and most agree that the such is the case and they point to the Catholic establishment.

Many try to then align with either a 16th century reformation paradigm or a pre 300 paradigm.

Luther discovered the reality of the Body and each man directly recieving from the Head :
He called it the priest hood of all believers,
he fought against the Ecclesiastical hierarchy system of his day.
But unfortunatly he seemed to recreate a similar system himself so did Calvin so did the Anabaptist and so on.

Men in our day Gene Edwards, Frank Viola etc have said lets look and recreate a pre 300 paradigm, an organic house church movement instead of the corporate paradigm .
Neoanabaptist like Bercot/Dean Taylor seem to indicate that the Edwards/Viola history is inaccurate about what this pre 300 paradigm looked like, which I think that Bercot/Dean Taylor is correct.

It is begaining to appear to me (according to my limited research thus far) that the departure from the Body Paradigm into a Ecclesiastical hierarchy system did not originate aroud 300 but as soon as we leave the inspired Scriptures.

edit: clarity

 2015/9/4 9:46Profile


For those interested in the easiest book on what went wrong from a church structure perspective here you go.

It is also called the 2/3 reformation.

It goes without saying that the structure programs and fixes that have been tried have solved very few of the Churches ills. But that is a far larger conversation. With this at least you will know in a couple hours how it went sideways.

marc mc

 2015/9/4 12:23


I did not know that Jim Rutz had died. I remember, about 20 years ago being handed the book, "The Open Church", while shopping one day. Lot of truth in his book, but a lot of things were strange...mixture.

 2015/9/4 13:01

Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5712


I remember reading Megashift by Rutz years ago. I don't remember tons about it other than it raised numerous red flags. At least for me.


 2015/9/4 13:12Profile

Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1697
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama


Brothers and Sisters, please let's be cautious. My mind and emotions are also frustrated, as some of yours are, about "traditional church" or as I think of it "corporation church". But, we are dealing with far, far more than mere formats of meeting.

Can I say this? We need a move of God that will awaken all of us. "Awake, o sleeper", the Scripture says. I shudder to think of all the ways that I am asleep even as I actively seek God and put my mind on the things above and not the things of earth. My heart -- our hearts -- need a quickening and an awakening of unthinkable measures.

I'm convinced that God will do in us what He intends to do in order to secure to Himself His own creation for His own glory. He will have it in glorious ways and degrees. "The half has never yet been told."

I don't know how much this matters to the topic, but in my mind I'm connecting it, so please bear with me. Last week, after we finished the trial of my client for reckless murder and armed robbery, my client and I sat at the counsel table in the courtroom awaiting the jury's verdict. They were out a number of hours. While my young client and I sat there, he started asking me questions about the bible. Do you know where Jesus said for us not to worry about how to respond in an hour of crisis, and that the answers would come to us from the Holy Spirit Himself? (Luke 12:11) There is more to the backstory that I cannot share, but suffice to say that my client was not the only person in crisis; I had been placed into one myself by him. Well, I want to tell you that in response to his inquiries about the Bible, I started quoting passages -- entire passages -- of Scripture that I DID NOT KNOW BY HEART. They flowed out of my mouth with ease. With explanation. Other things happened in that conversation that I will not go into.

My point in sharing is this: God is able to lead us and guide us in this hour not only to say what He wants, but to shape the Body of Christ as it pleases Him. I'm more convinced now than, maybe, I was that God is actively and closely guiding His people to do and be that which pleases Him and will accomplish His purposes. Just as His word does not return void but accomplishes His purposes, His people will accomplish His purposes as we obey Him moment by moment. We do not have to arrive at abstract, academic conclusions about the right make up of the church assembly. We do not have to be frustrated at the way things are; let's be committed to transformation in our lives and obedience and love and submission to one another.


 2015/9/4 14:48Profile

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