| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: | | I agree Greg. This is no joking matter.
I have looked at many websites the last couple of days that teach about head coverings and without fail they all either imply or come right out and say that women who are not wearing head coverings are not obedient to God and in some cases they just flat out say they are being rebellious to God. Many group our dear sisters by implication into the feminist arena. I would have to say this teaching is not just bordering on slander and accusation but in actuality is slander and false accusation. Not to mention how it destroys fellowship and alienates one another. I cannot see how any fellowship that alienates others by such slander and judging can be blessed by the Lord.
This "movement", has all the earmarks of imposing law on sisters in Christ. I just want to plead with those who are pushing this that I think you should be in prayer about this and ask yourself why this is ostensibly the only teaching in the NT whereby someone can easily and simply know that a woman's heart is not right when they do not wear a piece of cloth on the top of their head. Is there such a teaching that exists that we may know if a man's heart is not right? Why is it our role to impose obedience upon one another?
It is like a Christianized Sharia law. I think sisters should take care not to receive a spirit of condemnation from this teaching. The Spirit of God leads peacefully and not through condemnation.
Dear brothers who are pushing this, you already are witnessing how distressed you are making other sisters and even brothers because you are prescribing law. Please pray about whether you should continue this. You will alienate a large section of the Church and you will be known not for Christ, not for love, but for Christian Sharia law.
1Cor 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
P.S. rbanks, great post. I think those who are pushing this will no longer be accepted in the head covering community if they don't continue to go along with this law and so that is why they do it. I also caught Sandra's struggle with it and thank you for showing it to all of us more clearly. Sandra was pretty much outnumbered and would have been in total isolation. I understand why she does it and I have great empathy towards her. |
|  2015/7/15 0:12 | | rbanks
Member
Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1330
| | Re: | | Julius,
I have enjoyed your writings very much in the Lord!
I haven't been posting as much lately but I look at the threads from time to time.
Thank you brother for all your posts on this thread. You are a great encouragement to the body of Christ!
Blessings!
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| | 2015/7/15 0:48 | Profile | Sree
Member
Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953
| | Re: | | It is a pain to see this thread being hijacked by those who support women to not cover their heads. Such brothers were already advised to keep out of this thread. Whether one believes in Head covering or not, it is a simple command given in NT. In NT there are very few external commands, that can even be counted with our figures. Hence it should not be difficult to keep such minimal external commands.
It is pain to read brothers who support women ignoring this command. They do not understand that nor they have respect to this word from our Lord in Matthew 5-18:- "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven"
Why do you want to teach others to not follow a command? Why do you want to gain curse by taking words out of the Bible? If any man believes that women does not need to cover her head, it will be good for him to keep quite than to spread such lies and gain curse. They do not understand the seriousness of removing words out of the Bible. Shows how shallow their salvation is.
Head covering and Submission are totally related to one another. I do not mean that a women who covers her head will submit but the vice versa will not. No it is not what I meant. But Head covering will show the seriousness of submission that a women has towards her husband. Biblical submission to Husband is a very high standard that cannot be attained by flesh. One needs greater grace to achieve such a high standard. So if a person really understands the value of submission and their inability in flesh to submit to husband then they will automatically cover their head. They will do anything that will gain them grace in this area.
Suppose there was a command that men should shave half of their head as a sign for the love they have to their wife then I will sit in Church with half of my head shaved. No matter how ugly it is, no matter if no men in Christendom follow the command, I will still follow it. Because I know how difficult it is for me to Love my wife like Christ loves the Church. If by means of shaving one half of Head if I can receive grace in this area then I will take no chance. I am not saying by means of our action we will win grace, NO but our disobedience can prevent God's grace from reaching us. I will give no room for such disobedience.
It is easiest thing in the world to follow any external command, compared to keeping the internal commands. There are many Pagans in the country where I live have better external standard of life than more than 99% of Church going Christians in US. So one does not need Jesus to have an external testimony. But inner life cannot come without Jesus. If there is so much disregard for such an easy task (external Command) then it can be found how serious such people are in keeping the internal commands that are very difficult to keep.
It is like a boy who fails in 1st grade how can he pass the 10th Grade?
_________________
Sreeram
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| | 2015/7/15 1:18 | Profile | rainydaygirl
Member
Joined: 2008/10/27
Posts: 742
| | Re: | | I believe it's time for me to back out of this thread and perhaps
from posting on SI altogether. I pray for us all to walk with the
Lord and patiently extend love to one another.
Rainydaygirl
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| | 2015/7/15 1:33 | Profile | ccchhhrrriiisss
Member
Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779
| | Re: | | Hi sister ginnyrose (and anyone else who might have input),
Quote:
Yet it has a literal benefit because it effects the angels. I treasure the ministry of these Beings...
Could you explain what you mean?
I know that verse 10 (in I Corinthians) mentions "because of the angels." However, I don't see any particular explanation in the passage itself. I've assumed that angels are not really in need of any physical symbol -- as if they relied upon the symbol itself for one reason or another. After all, their fate is already sealed. Do you feel that their ministry work is somehow impeded if a head covering is not worn by believing women?
I have read through quite a few websites and writings about head coverings (particularly from those who interpret this passage as being a physical covering in addition to hair and a lasting ordinance to this day). Several of them mentioned the "angel" aspect as a primary reason for the need of such a physical symbol.
I would like to know more about this particular interpretation regarding this "angel" passage.
In addition, I asked a question in regard to the head covering and how those who might not embrace this particular tradition might be judged. Earlier in this thread, there were people who felt "judged" because they feel impressed to wear the covering. Others have expressed that they feel judged if they do not wear it.
Earlier, I wrote:
Quote:
"I would never think of judging a sister who does or does not practice head coverings (in any of the various ways that it is practiced). If she is convinced of this and follows the Lord as she is convinced, then she should not be commended for following what she believes to be from the Lord.
At the same time, I would wonder how a local church, fellowship or group that embraces such a tradition would respond to a believing couple that did not embrace this practice. Would they be welcomed into full fellowship (like those who do practice it)? Would they be judged unworthy to engage in ministry or leadership roles within that local fellowship of believers? Would such a woman (or her husband) be rejected from teaching younger believers?"
For those who embrace this practice and fellowship among other believers (or congregations) that do, what would be the view of the local church or fellowship toward those who do not embrace it? Would they be welcomed into full fellowship (including ministry)? Would they welcomed to attend meetings but be shunned from ministry or leadership?
If a believing husband and wife who do not embrace this practice began to fellowship with a local congregation or group, would they be permitted the same ministry and leadership opportunities as those who do embrace the head covering?
Thank you in advance.
_________________
Christopher
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| | 2015/7/15 2:31 | Profile | Sree
Member
Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953
| | Re: | | Quote:
I know that verse 10 (in I Corinthians) mentions "because of the angels." However, I don't see any particular explanation in the passage itself.
I would like to give my answers though the question was not directed at me. I clearly emphasized the 'sign for Angels' because that proves that this practice is not a cultural one. Angels do not have culture like human beings. Hence those who explain this command based on culture are wrong.
There is another place where Apostle Paul mentions that he has seen heavenly things that cannot be explained by human words. He gives no further explanation about his vision. Does that mean he has not seen it? Or does that mean a human cannot see heavenly vision? We cannot ignore any piece of scripture because there no further explanation to it.
Quote:
I've assumed that angels are not really in need of any physical symbol -- as if they relied upon the symbol itself for one reason or another. After all, their fate is already sealed. Do you feel that their ministry work is somehow impeded if a head covering is not worn by believing women?
Hebrews 1:14 says - Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?
There is some ministry that angels are assigned for the sake of believers. We do not know what it is. If they needed a sign then we better give them without asking question.
Do angels need sign? Yes, in Exodus 11 we read about the Angel of Death that killed the first born in those houses that did not have the sign of blood on their door post. Was it not a sign? Was it not a simple obedience to put blood on the door post that saved the Jews? Did they sit and ask questions like why do angels need sign? How tragic would it be if they use human intelligence and question why do angels need symbols?
Quote:
In addition, I asked a question in regard to the head covering and how those who might not embrace this particular tradition might be judged.
I would like to answer this on behalf of all the sisters who complain about being judged or all the men who are so sensitive to the danger of sisters being judged.
See just because there is a reason to judge those who choose not to cover their heads, we cannot ignore a command. I do not believe in forcing a command on others. Brother Zac Poonen's wife Annie Sister, covers her head and she believes in Not wearing ornaments. But many who attend their church wear ornaments. She even makes her view clear on taking the scripture literally regarding ornaments. But she has never judged or forced anyone to not attend Church due to them wearing ornaments. So holding to a command does not cause judgmental-ism.
I was in a Church where I was judged for something that I believed was not sin. I did not mind being Judged but as far as possible I did not let the weak stumble due to my convictions. But finally the Lord exposed their judgmental attitude in my matter and everything resulted in repentance and strengthening of Fellowship. But if I had got offended and left the Church because few were judgmental, I would have lost all the spiritual benefits that I gained from the Church.
Judas who was part of the Church of Jesus, he judged the women who anointed Jesus with perfume. It appears that even in the Church of Jesus there was a man with judgmental spirit. How much more in local Church do we not have such judgments? Let us not be affected by the view of others. If we all examine our self there is some degree of judgmental attitude in our flesh. As far as possible let us cleanse our self, instead of pointing fingers.
My wife who covers her head was attending a meeting in US held on behalf of Sermon Index. Except her no other sister covered their head (until Greg's wife Joined). My wife asked me whether she can uncover her head because she felt Odd. I told her not to do something for the fear of opinion of others. But I told her clearly, if she was judging those who do not cover their head then it is better for her to NOT cover her head than to Judge other women who do not cover. Judgmental heart is a clear abomination to God than an uncovered head. She kept covering her head in the meetings, one day a senior sister asked her about this practice. She explained her the spirit behind this command, that sister was impressed and she too started to cover her head. Praise Lord for such Godly Sisters who do not care about opinion of others, but only concern about what God thinks about them.
In short worrying about Judgmental-ism is not going to change anything. Let those who judge continue to judge, and those who get offended by them get offended and leave.
_________________
Sreeram
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| | 2015/7/15 3:17 | Profile | Sree
Member
Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953
| | Re: | | Sister RDG,
Quote:
cover. my husband is the head of my family, and household. as such he has spent much time in prayer and seeking to know the Lord heart on this matter. after much seeking and council he has shared with me that he does not feel convicted nor do others he has spoken with that this is a commend from the Lord. if i were to follow your advice and "just wear it" i would not be submitting to my husband.
I appreciate the fact that you consulted your husband. Though I do not agree with what your husband has said, he has only told you that he is not personally convicted. It does not sound like he has commanded you not to wear head covering. Correct me if I am wrong.
Now regarding submitting to Husband vs submitting to God. A person should choose God over it. As much as I appreciate your testimony, I am also concerned that some weak sister here might consider your testimony as standard approach. I do not want anyone to consider 'Ask your husband' approach as a standard solution in following the commands of God.
For example if your Husband wants to worship an Idol, you would certainly say no to him because it is clearly against God's command. I understand that people have complicated head covering and made this simple command complex. But it is still a command.
There was a case when my head covering wife choose not to obey me. I was raised as a Hindu. In Hindu culture we have a tradition of keeping bindi (a small mark) on forehead. According to me it is just a cultural sign of a women saying that she is not a Widow. So if a women does not have one then she is understood as widow.
During a marriage ceremony in my house, my wife was asked to keep this mark on her forehead. But I gave the choice to my wife. I told her to do it if she feels free. I told her my opinion that this is just a sign that your husband is alive. But she had a conviction that this sign is against her Christian Identity. In India only Christians and Widows do not have this sign. So she felt that she has to take a stand in this situation. Though I felt she was wrong, I let her take the decision. My family persecuted us for the stand that my wife took, we had to go through many tribulations. At certain stage I was so worried and asked the Lord about this stand that my wife took. I asked Lord to show why he is allowing this persecution on us.
The Lord answered immediately. A Hindu women met my wife and told her that, she was a secret Christian, but never got the courage to take a stand for Jesus. But hearing my wife's testimony from my family, she was very encouraged. She thanked my wife. Had my wife listened to me instead of listening to the Lord directly, she would not have encouraged this weak sister in Jesus. So at times women have to take stand irrespective of what their husband believes.
_________________
Sreeram
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| | 2015/7/15 4:04 | Profile | carters
Member
Joined: 2011/5/24
Posts: 138
Australia
| | Re: Head Coverings For Women In The Church? | | This Thread is for someone like me :)
I have been convinced in the past that there is spiritual weight in head covering, I have bought many headcoverings BUT...
I have no problem with the headcovering BUT I feel like I go into the "odd" zone (no disrespect to anyone else)if I wear a headcover AND a skirt.
I have never been a skirt person. I will submit myself to wearing skirts in summer but I get freezing in Winter. I am truly a pants girl, I even got saved in pants! I would happily wear a headcovering but feel awkward wearing one WITH a skirt too.
The only other practical problem I have with headcoverings is that I get very bad headaches when I have something tied at the base of my neck. This is true and no excuse. If I use pins, even worse headaches. My body does not like the pressure of the tying or the pinning.
Is it acceptable to wear a headcovering and jeans?
How do I overcome the pressures and headaches.
I also wish to add that I am a huge brother Derek Prince listener and between the lines he completely believes headcovering is for today.
I read Tertullian's apparel for women and this book opened my eyes!
Through Him alone,
Sherid
_________________
Mrs Carter
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| | 2015/7/15 4:47 | Profile | makrothumia
Member
Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 724
Texas
| | Peace is possible even with headcoverings | | I have been a part of several fellowships where the head covering is practiced without judgment or coercion.
Those who practiced covering their heads did not consider it a "carnal" command or "law", but a spiritual instruction given from an apostle of Jesus Christ who understood the relationship between law and grace better perhaps than any man who ever lived.
If instructing women to cover their head is placing law upon other believers, consider the implication that suggestion puts upon the apostle himself, not to mention the other churches with elders and deacons in the time of the early church. For if instructing women to cover their heads is "legalism" today, was it "legalistic" when Paul wrote the instructions.
Greek scholars are not divided over whether the passage indicates an external cloth was meant. They exegete this from the grammar of the passage itself. They have no personal agenda to promote.
We should be careful not to be drawn into the scheme of the accuser of the brethren to bite and devour one another. It is possible for sisters in Christ to read Paul's instruction and believe they are to cover their head without in any way judging others who do not. If these sisters are asked why they cover their head and give a simple answer from the scripture that they believe Paul instructed women to do so - does this make them "legalistic"?
I realize that some in this thread have expressed a view that all women should cover their head? Is this legalism in and of itself?
I have learned from experience that one of the accuser of the brethren's greatest schemes is to subtly draw believers into positions "against" each other. While it may be true that some believers hold the view of wearing a head covering in a "legalistic" manner, this in no way makes the practice any less spiritual for the many sisters who simply do so in faith unto God without judging others.
Romans 14 warns believers against the type of doubtful disputations that this thread has turned into. Those who cover their heads and do so by faith unto the Lord should not judge those who do not and those who do not cover their heads by faith unto the Lord should not judge those who do.
Head covering itself is not a "legalistic" matter, nor is instructing sisters to cover their heads. If it were, we have thereby accused the apostle of grace himself, for he is the one who originated the instruction.
The beginning of this thread made an appeal that was simple enough. To the pure all things are pure. There are believers all over the world who have read Paul's instruction without fear of "legalism" and decided to wear a head covering. Some of these sincere believers go on to teach those under their care that they believe women should do this. I am grateful that God is able to see the simplicity and sincerity of the hearts of such believers.
Can women judge others who do not practice what they believe Paul instructed? Sadly, yes! Can women who see or understand Paul's instruction differently judge women who do what they do not believe they are to do? Sadly, yes!
This is what I observe in some of the responses in this thread. We are to "receive one another in order to bring glory to God." The type of argumentation in this thread that Greg sought to caution against is far more destructive to the body of Christ than the topic of head covering.
makrothumia
_________________
Alan and Dina Martin
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| | 2015/7/15 5:14 | Profile | makrothumia
Member
Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 724
Texas
| | Re: a little letter makes a big difference | | I was reading through I Corinthians and found a discrepancy in my Greek text and the linguistic commentary I was using to help me.
The discrepancy involved the spelling of the word "sarkikos", the Greek word for flesh. In verse 1 of Chapter 3, my Greek translation had "sarkiKos", but the translation in the commentary had "sarkiNos".
One letter makes a big difference, the kind of difference that we could greatly benefit from if we could grasp it.
The Greek scholar explained the difference this way. By using the "N" instead of the "K", the word "carnal" used in verse 1 lacks the derogatory sense that "carnal" with the "K" does intend in verse 3.
What is the practical lesson to be gained from this little difference? Not fully understanding our immature decisions to align ourselves with a teacher or position is an indication that we have not yet grown out of a "carnal" state of infancy in Christ.
However, being involved in anything that is producing "strife, discord, and jealousy" is a work of the
"sarkiKos" - carnal with the K!
Infants need time to mature to full grown spiritual men. We must bear with them and suffer long to see grace do its finishing touches. But men sowing strife, jealousy, and creating divisions in the body of Christ are "carnal" in the full derogatory sense of the word.
These type of believers are those Jude warns of "These are soulish men, causing divisions, not having the Spirit."
May the Lord give us His grace to learn the difference.
makrothumia
makrothumia
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Alan and Dina Martin
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| | 2015/7/15 5:38 | Profile |
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