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ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hello,

I posted some questions earlier about the wearing of head coverings. Most of my questions were answered, but there were a few that were not.

During this discourse, there were words about "judging" those who do or do not practice this tradition. My question was specifically about congregations, fellowships or local churches that embrace it. Since I assume that several people here attend congregations where it is either encouraged or widely embraced, I was hoping that someone with firsthand knowledge could answer.


How are believers who do not embrace this practice treated among believers who do?

Are believers who do not practice this welcomed into full fellowship (like those who do practice it)?

Are those believers who do not embrace this practice considered unworthy to engage in ministry or leadership roles within that local fellowship of believers?

Would such a woman (or her husband) be rejected from teaching younger believers?"

Would they welcomed to attend meetings but be forbidden from active ministry, teaching or leadership in the local church?

Thank you for helping me understand the views and practices of this particular tradition. This greatly assists my understanding of how those who embrace this practice view those who do not or whether it is essential for actively participating in the local congregation.


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Christopher

 2015/7/16 18:20Profile
4wiseinheart
Member



Joined: 2012/8/11
Posts: 3


 Re:

As food for thought and not a source of contention but if she is "walking in love, harmony, and unity with you" then she will want to follow the ordinance laid out in the Word of God.

Just as there are two other outward expressions (taking of the Lord's supper and water baptism) this does have a "sign of authority." Man is to give glory to God and women are the glory of men. No man shall glory in the presence of the Lord. Man's glory should be veiled or covered. Let her be veiled.

Of course, she does not have to do it. Neither does she nor you have to have any outwards signs of faith. These are your choices. You have to do what is right before the Lord.

With Love in Christ.

 2015/7/16 20:42Profile
4wiseinheart
Member



Joined: 2012/8/11
Posts: 3


 Re:

Brother,

I have a book as well by Brother North titled "A Sign of Authority." If you are interested in obtaining a good explanation of the head covering, please let me know.

With Love in Christ.

 2015/7/16 20:45Profile
dfella
Member



Joined: 2010/7/9
Posts: 295
Canton, Michigan

 Re:

Hey Chris:

I would like to answer your questions regarding head coverings and my experience since 1997 with churches that practice this.

How are believers who do not embrace this practice treated among believers who do?

"Are believers who do not practice this welcomed into full fellowship (like those who do practice it)?"

Since 1997 I have been involved with 3 fellowships that practice head coverings. 2 were home churches (1 of which was charismatic the other not) and 1 church (my current church) which is not charismatic. The answer to this question is yes, women are accepted into full fellowship if they choose not to wear head coverings. I have noticed over time that those who come, eventually start wearing head coverings. As I said in another thread, this is not commanded or demanded. I believe the women who fellowship together on occasion may discuss the topic and the women are coming to their own conclusion.

"Are those believers who do not embrace this practice considered unworthy to engage in ministry or leadership roles within that local fellowship of believers?"

No, they are absolutely not considered unworthy to engage in ministry. But as I said above, the women, of their own free will, eventually begin to wear head coverings, not by constraint but of their own free will.

"Would such a woman (or her husband) be rejected from teaching younger believers?"

Absolutely not.

"Would they welcomed to attend meetings but be forbidden from active ministry, teaching or leadership in the local church?"

Again, with my experience for the last 18 years, the answer is again no, they are not and have not been forbidden to participate in ministry.

Others may answer differently, I can only share my own firsthand experience.

A question that was asked in the other thread was "Would a sister who wears a head covering be willing to fellowship with a woman who does not?"

My thought and observation is that it is not a question about whether a woman who wears a head covering is willing to fellowship with one who does not but actually the other way around.

Are women who disagree with this practice willing to fellowship with women who wear head coverings?

Based on the way some women attack, judge, and condemn the practice I find them more judgemental toward those who do. Over 18 years I have seen the topic hotly debated and for the most part it is not the women who wear the head coverings that defend themselves but rather the men.

Then the men are looked down upon because they are accused of being sexist or controlling, it is a no win situation.

It is one thing to debate (which I do not, nor will not participate in) and it is another thing to reason with those who are willing and care only about getting to the truth of a matter.

I said earlier that I know women who love the Lord with all their heart, they bear fruit in their lives, and some women wear head coverings and others do not. I do not lose sleep over the topic.

Where I believe women trip themselves up is when one condemns the other for wearing or not wearing head coverings. In all honesty however I have NEVER seen a women who wears a head covering condemn a women who does not.

BUT, I have seen plenty of women who do not wear head coverings attack and condemn those who do.



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David Fella

 2015/7/16 21:54Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi dfella,

Thank you for your answers. They are very educational and helpful for understanding the perspective of those who embrace this tradition in regard to those who do not.

Over the years, I have visited many different fellowships from different backgrounds and unique sets of beliefs. I've been to churches that taught the head covering (but they were a bit more strict with the teaching and those who can participate in church functions). I've also been to meetings where men and women were separated from one another (e.g., men on one side/women on the other, women meeting in a different room, etc...). I've seen church rules about hair, dress, etc... Of course, I have also been to more "loose" churches in terms of such matters too, as well as "mainstream" congregations.

Often, I have found that congregations will welcome believers who feel differently about some matter. They will be invited to fellowship and even participate in certain aspects of ministry. However, over time, if they don't comply (or "submit") to the teaching of a specific "doctrine" held by the leaders of the congregation (or the institution itself), they will eventually feel some pressure (everything from a sort of "spiritual peer pressure" to verbal reprimands). Some churches might even give others the "boot" if they don't comply.

For instance, my cousin was a part of a local church that held to KJV-only, OSAS, post-trib second coming, tithing, and a list of other "doctrinal" issues that were actively embraced and taught by the church. This was the only congregation that he attended after giving his life to Christ. He eventually became the Sunday School teacher. When the pastor was absent, my cousin was the person who would be called upon to preach. My cousin was quite the local evangelist -- and many of his converts ended up as a part of that local church. However, my cousin differed from the fellowship on one non-essential issue. It came to light during a Bible study Q&A session. When he shared what he believed, the pastor told him to sit down. After the meeting, the pastor met with my cousin and gave him an ultimatum -- "comply or fly." Until that happened, he was not allowed to hold any "position" of authority.

A similar situation happened with my brother-in-law and his family. They were welcomed with open arms at a small local church and their passion for the Lord was recognized from the pulpit. They were encouraged to even become involved in teaching the youth. That is, this was until they still didn't comply with a particular doctrinal issue that the congregation adhered to. Once it became clear that they weren't likely to ever adopt that particular position, they were eventually "voted out" of their teaching position. The pastor mentioned something about the lack of "growth" that was "apparent" because they didn't adopt that belief.

As such, I think that you can understand my concern with this type of perspective.

I've always felt that there are some issues that should not be "positions" taken by churches (institutionally speaking). I am speaking of non-essential issues that are not exceptionally clear among all believers. Most denominations have a list of "we believe" statements that the church adheres to. I think that I understand the need for such things in terms of legality for institutional churches. However, I have always wondered why we don't rely upon the Holy Spirit to lead and guide the congregation into all truth. Do pastors, leaders, teachers or institutions need to take a stand on things like tithing (yes, no, gross, net, etc...), OSAS, acceptable Bible version(s), music, tongues, head coverings, etc... to the point that they are mandated or greatly impressed rather than mentioned as a potential truth from God's Word?

In other words, I would have no problem with allowing a congregation to make up their mind on issues that are non-essential or not universally clear from the Word of God. While there will always be those that claim that something IS clear from God's Word or "essential," it doesn't mean that it is clear for all or even most who truly know the Lord. I think that the pastor and teachers can teach on controversial subjects without necessarily mandating a position or proclaiming a "doctrinal truth" out of them if they aren't essential. A pastor or teacher can share his belief on the matter while mentioning alternate perspectives that other believers have.

For instance, I still lean toward the belief that the Lord may gather His Bride before the wrath of God is poured out upon the Earth (call it "rapture" if you like). I would NEVER proclaim it as an indisputable truth. I would simply say this is what I believe with the reasons why...and then share other views and the Scriptural reasoning for those beliefs. The same can be said for everything from tithing to music to, yes, head coverings. Such matters don't have to be discussed on a weekly or monthly basis or become a part of a "first things first" Sunday School class for new believers. They can be touched upon (periodically even) and then the church can turn its attention upon much more important matters. The burden is then upon the believer to seek the Lord wholeheartedly in order to find out where the Lord is leading them (or not) in regard to such issues.

My wife and I do not embrace the man-made head covering as it is taught in this thread. That is not to say that we haven't studied and prayed about it. We have studied this issue in depth many times (often because we visited churches that embraced or taught it...or because of what we have read here at SermonIndex many times). Still, after much heartfelt and honest prayer and study, we just haven't been convinced of any sort of mandatory need for her to wear a piece of cloth upon her head as a sign to a fallen world (that would likely be confused by it in the first place), other believers or angels about her role. Of course, my wife is a very godly woman. I am so blessed to have found a wife like this -- a truly virtuous woman who is submissive in a godly way and a wonderful help-meet. Her submission and godliness is apparent to anyone who meets or knows her -- even without a kerchief atop her hair.

I hope that this helps explain a little more where I am coming from. I would never want to judge a person by their outer appearance. I think that sister ginnyrose once said that a woman isn't necessarily submissive just because she wears one of those head coverings. I guess that the same can be said of all believers from all backgrounds. A Christian t-shirt or a fish on the bumper doesn't mean that Christ is in the heart. In fact, I learned recently -- first hand -- that not all married couples wear wedding rings after meeting a man from a different nation and culture that didn't wear one and the idea of such a symbol was quite foreign to him.

I think that Greg has done a good job in the way that he gently brings up the idea of head coverings without impressing upon people a need to accept it. I think that he has stood out of the way and allowed the Holy Spirit to have His work in this matter. Of course, that doesn't mean that I embrace it. However, I appreciate the gentleness of spirit and manner in which Greg allows for God to have His work in each of us as we pray and study.

Thanks again. It is very helpful and this thread (and each participating in it) is very educational -- even if we might not all agree on this.


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Christopher

 2015/7/17 0:22Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953


 Re:

Chris and others who are concerned about Judgmental aspect of head covering. If Head Covering can lead to Judgmental-ism then even 'breaking of Bread' and 'water baptism' can lead to judgmental-ism. To be consistent you need to advice Christians from practicing these external commands as well, because they lead to judgmental-ism.

For example many Christians when they enquire about my Church, the first thing that they ask is, 'How Often do you break bread?'. They think that a Church is more spiritual if it breaks bread often. Is this not judgmental? So can we stop breaking bread? William Booth stopped breaking of Bread in his salvation army because the grape juice they tasted reminded some of vine that they were once addicted. But we all know that Salvation Army of that time was a clear movement of God. Who can question that?

You guys keep pointing about judgmental aspects in home fellowships. I too agree and I have faced such judgments myself. But that is part and parcel of God's Church. Even the Church with Jesus as the teacher had Judas who was judging the women who anointed Jesus with Perfume. So if you keep running away from Churches due to judgmental-ism then you will be running away from Jesus. The only important thing in a Church is the presence of Jesus in the midst when you gather. If that is not there then even acceptance of your jeans and uncovered head is of no use!

The reason why many of the believers are running away from home fellowship and are happy with mega Churches where they can always be nobody without worrying about other believers is, they are not willing to face the cost of fellowship. In Noah's Ark there were animals packed to one another. They would have brushed each other badly. But their only mode of survival is to be in the Ark. Same way if we kept worrying about people judging us in a fellowship then we will never be part of a Church that Jesus is building. Before you are asking for a Church, count the cost that you have to pay to be part of a Church.


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Sreeram

 2015/7/17 3:35Profile
vasilef
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Joined: 2005/12/8
Posts: 120
ROMANIA

 Head covering question

Head covering Question: (for those that don't consider head covering a cultural, first century Corinthian rule... I don't believe any passage of the Bible is just for 1st century church)

1. How should a woman cover her head? (if the 1 Corinthian 11 passage is not talking about physical covering)
2. How man should not have his head covered? (spiritually or metaphorical speaking)

So these are questions for those that do not believe in physical head covering.


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Vasile Filip

 2015/7/17 8:30Profile
yuehan
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Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 562


 Re: Head Coverings For Women In The Church?

Greg - just to clarify your position: do you believe that headcoverings should be worn by women only in church assembly contexts, or at all times?

 2015/7/20 3:01Profile
sermonindex
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Joined: 2002/12/11
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Online!
 Re:

Quote:
Greg - just to clarify your position: do you believe that headcoverings should be worn by women only in church assembly contexts, or at all times?



Sisters, are free to wear a headcovering more then just at the times of Church if they want to. If they pray for a meal at home it would be good if they covered probably. But the Scripture says specifically during the Christian meeting when they are praying, etc.

So to me that is the requirement and specifically the reason is spiritual as I share here: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=55015&forum=34


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2015/7/20 11:00Profile
yuehan
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Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 562


 Re:

If women are required to cover their head at all times, then (going by the same 1 Corinthians chapter) men too would be obliged to have their heads uncovered at all times -"No hats, caps and safety helmets!"

But 1 Cor 11 specifically addresses the context of church meetings. So that's something which we don't have to worry bout :)

 2015/7/20 11:20Profile





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