As Art Katz put it, "A church that is not prophetic, is ipso-facto, not the church." God's plan is that all the church be prophetic.
Thanks CJaKfOrEsT. I say a hearty "amen!" that all of the church is to be prophetic. Though I am just becoming aquainted with Art Katz through this website, I have been helped by what he has to say on the subject of Prophets.
But Christ still remains a mystery to those who are not led by the Spirit.
This includes too many of us in the church. Sadly this defines for me the mission of the NT prophet...not just a call to repentance from sins, but, perhaps more importantly, a call to a return to Jesus.
| 2005/5/4 17:33||Profile|
| Re: Prophetic Credentials.....|
There are two things that really spoke to my spirit in your post ...
"Were just average Joes just sent forth in the hope that the average Joe can relate, but ironically the average Joe is not looking for the average Joe ...
Christ, the prophet of all prophets, appeared as an "average joe" ...
"Its actually a little funny how this thread has turned out because you could swear this was not a forum but it was playing out in real life" ...
It is brother James ... It is! ... ;-)
Br. R :beard:
| 2005/5/4 17:50||Profile|
Brother Rahman! You still love me?
| 2005/5/4 18:00||Profile|
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
I agree, signs and wonders canbe deceptive, we can't count on that but we can test the words of any prophet by bringing them before GOd, that should be the test I think. I have felt God minister to me in the very depths of my spirit but He doesn't stop there, He also minister to me through the common base things, things that we may take for granted. We indeed should be balanced in our walk and when we yield to the Holy spirit this can be attained. Being a prophet doesn't mean neglecting everything else or everyone else, we are not exempt from our daily Christian duties but rather we now have something beyond that to be responsible for.
| 2005/5/4 19:09||Profile|
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
I am IRONMAN and that is, simply Jimm...that's "sons of thunder" we prefer that :-P I didn't quite graps how frustrating this whole work would be. Through it though I've learned to feel what God feels concerning us all and it is an emotional rollercoaster.
Some of the things God shows us and says are imminent may not necessarily happen tomorrow, Jeremiah prophecied for how long before the invasion came? At the end of the day some prophecies will take a long while before they are realized while others may be instantaneous almost.
at any rate, the only way is for us to take these words before God and have Him decide.
| 2005/5/4 19:27||Profile|
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
| Re: May be on the wrong track...oops thread|
I'll ask another question. Is the gift of prophecy, spoken if in 1 Cor 12-14 the same as that of Ephesians 4?
It would seem that in Corinthians it is the gift operating, but in Ephesians it is a Prophet equipping the saints to prophecy or to operate in that gifting. I am thinking along the lines of an impartation of gifting. I am presuming that something was passed onto Timothy when hands were laid on him.
| 2005/5/5 1:13||Profile|
To me, a prophet is one who understands mysteries, and is able to proclaim them. He is one who can understand the language of angels (what God is saying in heaven. ie, mysteries), and equally the language of men, thereby able to proficiently communicate these mysteries, so that those with ears to hear, can understand. Not only can the prophet understand and proclaim these mysteries effectively, he has faith with which he can move mountains (affect change in seemingly impossible situations). The prophet willing pours out his life for the words sake, not witholding possessions, or even his own blood, if necessary.
Mind you, the prophet is who has extraordinary love, without which the words he utters would be as "sounding brass and a tinkling cymbal", and this love, which considers self last, and the receiver to be the most important person apart from the Lord Himself, which leaves him always considering himself to be "nothing, and never profiting", as he understands the total impossibility of his task and necessary character. In a word, the prophet is broken.
The prophet is honest beyond the point of incrimination. The prophet understands that truth and love are inseperable. This love makes the prophet willing to offend, when necessary, knowing that he risks having a "millstone tied around his neck" and being "cast into the sea", if he goes too far. This love makes the prophet willing to point out the folly of kings, knowing that it could mean his execution. The prophet understands what Asaph went through to write Psalm 73.
This is very romantic Brother Aaron
I wonder if such a person has ever walked the face of the Earth save Jesus Christ Himself! In that last statement however is the prophets and indeed every Christians saving clause. We (every Christians) can do nothing of ourselves and apart from the vine we will never build up these virtues until we are worthy of Him. The prophet is just a man Brother Aaron, and God chooses whom He will. The Lord did not choose me (sorry its unavoidable in this case) to be a prophet because I had extraordinary love or because I am one who understands mysteries. I cannot even claim that the Lord chose me for humility, for I was full of arrogance and self. The Lord in His sovereignty, did what He wanted to do.
Prophets do not always completely understand what they are prophesying, as Peter says, Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. (I Peter 1:10-11) They prophesied a message but they still had to search diligently.
Even John the Baptist sent to get a further confirmation from Jesus when He was in prison, as if to say, are you really the fulfillment of [i]my[/i] (I use my very loosely here)prophesy? Jeremiah, lamented to His death, Ezekiel was tough as nails, Isaiah was a nobleman, Elijah was a country boy, Jacob was a stubborn trickster, Abraham believed God, Moses was the meekest man in all the earth, David was a man after Gods own heart, Solomon was the wisest man that ever lived
. Is there any real correlation here or did God just do what he wanted to do? I tell you in all honesty, God does not chose men based on their virtues but base on His own virtues. People are right to an extent when they say, if you can be a prophet so can I, but it is not I who chooses, it is God. I pray that we would stop seeing these things in terms of rank, but as an expression of Christ, it is not an expression of mark mind you. I can take credit for nothing whatsoever.
I do not look out and wisely at the world and the Church choose the best course of action and what message I should prepare and deliver. I just follow instructions. I cannot chose what to prophesy about. I have to pray and seek just as diligently as everyone else. If stop praying and seeking I will backslide, there is no intrinsic power or virtue in me. I am nothing, in fact, I am less than nothing because I am actually harmful should I choose to act on my own, so not only do I not have positive virtues apart from Christ, I actually have negative and detrimental traits.
People are looking for wonderful personalities but in the Church there is only one personality and that is Jesus Christ, and we are all an expression of that Person. There is not member of the body that is so important that we should all be conformed to it, so please guys, ease up on the we need more true prophets deal. What we need is not more prophets but we need everyone include you to start activating there faith and sacrificing themselves for the Lord. What we need is not more prophets but more Christ in everyone. We do not need any heroes coming to save the day with mountain moving faith but we need a collective effort from the whole body. The statements you made about a prophet apply to everyone who names the name of Christ openly. We should all be willing to pour out our lives for the Words sake, not withholding possessions, or even our own blood, if necessary. Sell all you have, including your personality and follow Him.
I received a revelation to the effect that, those who are not seeking after Truth will certainly not find it. It is good to be on the look out for false prophets and false Christs but we should be more on the look out for truth, rather than employ a shoot anything that moves (whether by the Spirit or not) attitude. I imagine the Pharisees having a conversation and one of them asking aloud if any believed this miracle working Jesus of Nazareth or if they would like to hear Him, and one responds with all sincerity and conviction, The Christ is to come out of Bethlehem according to the scriptures. Biblically this man does not fit the criteria. I will not so much as hear Him, because he has already failed [b]my[/b] test, in that He does not fit the biblical definition.
Of course they could not truly have know where He was born unless they truly and sincerely, without and bias, sought out that information. The Pharisees were sincere in that they were looking for the Christ, but they had defined Him into a box, and unfortunately, Jesus did not fit into that box. Even after they killed Him they felt justified, because had He been the true Christ they could not have killed Him and He would have fulfilled the scripture and restored Israel. It is sad, that these people missed Christ because they were not looking for Him they were looking for something to put into their box. I wonder if the Lords servant today are not experiencing something similar. Today we are looking for wonder saint to turn the world upside down, when the Lord may have a different agenda, even as [i]small[/i] as your own community or [i]neighbor[/i]hood (love thy neighbor?). We are not looking for a true expression of the Church, we are looking for a grand expression, that will show the world that we are not crazy for what we believe, this expression may or may not come in our lifetime but while were here right now
Mrs. Thompson down the road is dead inside and desperately needs the Lord
think about it.
James Gabriel Gondai Dziya
| 2005/5/5 1:53||Profile|
There is a gifting of prophesy thats available to the who so evers in the body and there are those who the Lord for his own purposes sets apart as His prophets for the work of matureing the body of believers. But the giftings of the Holy Spirit are available to all the individual believers.
| 2005/5/5 7:59||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
| Re: Out of 'Office' reply|
You are reading too much into that;
We (every Christians) can do nothing of ourselves and apart from the vine we will never build up these virtues until we are worthy of Him. The prophet is just a man Brother Aaron, and God chooses whom He will. The Lord did not choose me (sorry its unavoidable in this case) to be a prophet because I had extraordinary love or because I am one who understands mysteries. I cannot even claim that the Lord chose me for humility, for I was full of arrogance and self. The Lord in His sovereignty, did what He wanted to do.
Think 'outcome' not 'references'.
People are right to an extent when they say, if you can be a prophet so can I, but it is not I who chooses, it is God. I pray that we would stop seeing these things in terms of rank, but as an expression of Christ, it is not an expression of mark mind you. I can take credit for nothing whatsoever.
Taking 'to an extent' into consideration, perhaps in the light of "God is not a respecter of persons" would agree up to that point, but the danger is that far too many have taken something similar to this and ran with it and now we have the confusion of Babel all over again. That is why by and large some of us find this to be absolute nonsense. Because by and large there has been some kind of kooky idea that has spawned all these 'prophetic' ministries in the last what 20 to 50 years? Where are all the 'prophets' from the 1800's, 1700, so on and so on back?
Look at the few who made this claim and what spawned from them, a Joseph Smith or a Charles Taze Russell;
""How can an individual write such extreme praise of himself and his writings, attach such enormous, crucial, vital importance to his writings, argue for his being a special, one of a kind, never-before-seen, never-to-be-repeated agent of God and then impute a lack of meekness and humility and teachableness to those who doubt this?"
"I view Russell as having a form of mental illness, an infection from the germs of self-centeredness that breed wherever an atmosphere of personal importance and power develops."
Raymond Franz - In Search of Christian
Just an example and again speaking in generalities here, but one thing that keeps cropping up time and time again; This penchant towards always having to defend themselves. And like MC stated, we want to see a badge here, where are your 'credentials'?, not your defense of them.
Another aspect to all this is in how closely tied all this is to the WOF, prosperity gospel, health and wealth and so on. What is the catch all phrase when a badge is asked for from these folks?
"Touch not the Lords anointed", again, on the defensive.
Another commonality to all this is in exalting 'experience' over just solid scripture evidence. Being a Berean is no longer noble but a detriment, 'quenching' the Spirit. A lot of it is clever in how it is manipulated to pit one against the other, this subtle mind game of planting seeds of doubt, that the so called 'prophet' can't be touched or questioned, those that do get the axiomatic label, "Pharisees",'[i]Don't listen to them[/i]'.
What it has produced is a whole generation of not only easy-believism, seeking after signs and wonders, materialism, 'what's in it for me', self help, self exalting, self centered, surface level faith that hardly resembles anything other than vain imaginations run wild with Christian overtones. It has become less and less of an exchanged life and more and more of just an outward show of things.
Biblically this man does not fit the criteria. I will not so much as hear Him, because he has already failed [b]my[/b] test, in that He does not fit the biblical definition.
That is somewhat of a reach and perhaps is being spoken in the same 'generalities', but as it applies here, I don't think it applies here at all. This isn't [b]my[/b] or [b]our[/b] test, but the admonishment of "Test all things, and hold firmly that which is good".
For all the post's and threads on this whole area which are many, it still seems the definition remains fuzzy at best, that by and large this whole idea as it is termed and used in our day is blatantly false... it doesn't mean what they think it means and maybe the biggest reason for that is a stubborn refusal to heed...
2Ti 2:14 [b]Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.[/b]
Isn't the 'credentials' contained right within these words? "Study to [b]shew thyself approved unto God,[/b] a workman that [b]needeth not to be ashamed[/b], [u]rightly[/u] dividing the word of truth. Wouldn't that extract out any necessity of having to be on the defensive?
We can thank God that there is still some that will refuse the nonsense, turn tail and head back down the path, back through Christian History to learn what our roots are, to get back to the core foundation of set truth's and glean from those men of God who knew their God and proclaimed Jesus as the end of all argument.
It's interesting that even amongst a Tozer or a Ravenhill you don't here the sniveling defensiveness of what a 'prophet' must bear, they may talk of being broken of having their spiritual chops busted up, but so have many a saint that has gone down into the depths, at the core of their being and having that exposed to the Light been [i]torn asunder[/i], scorched in the fiery furnace and leveled to the dust of where they came from.
Take all this for what it is intended, that there is some latitude given for some of those here that are struggling with what they feel to believe are callings to this....'office' (we have been over that, but lacking a better term) and not being hostile about it the muddy middle of it all is in the 'sides' if it must be causing some reflection. That some have gone to extremes in guarding against the sheep nappers does not make them Pharisaical nor unbelieving nor narrow minded. If it isn't apparent yet that the things that cross our minds need to be filtered and re-filtered and tested by fire and tested by the brethren... I can say by experience that this inbreed distrust of my own thought's, the occasional 'apparent' 'visions', the dreams, the things [i]I [b]think[/b] may be[/i] what the Lord is communicating to the inward man has a caution written all over it and the reason is a large portion of it can't be trusted. The mind is [i]being[/i] renewed day by day, it is still suspect to it's own failings, imaginations and the twisting of the devils lies or that of his minions. We shouldn't expect these type's of things to be overt but subtle, a little twist here and there and we can be off on all kinds of tangents. Did the devil not use scripture itself against our Lord? Wretched it out of context, but the very Truth we hold to is attempted to be used against us.
"[i]The devil is a better theologian than any of us and is a devil still.[/i]" A.W.Tozer
If there is any prophetic utterance needed today it ought to be "Let My people [i]think[/i]".
Edit: Speaking of things coming to mind...
2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
2Co 10:5 [b]Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ[/b];
| 2005/5/5 9:13||Profile|
Hey Brother Daryl
Not to zero in on you dear Brother, but I realize I have not answered some of your questions.
there are those who the Lord for his own purposes sets apart as His prophets for the work of matureing the body of believers.
You believe the believers need a prophet to mature in Christ? All a servant of the Lord can do is plant and water, maturity comes from the Lord.
None of us can ever take credit, so you're in good company brother. The NT says , "the spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets". How do you hear that scripture?
I have a very high awareness of my own spirit but even that is not sufficient to serve the Lord. Even my spirit, built in true holiness after the Lord (as the spirits of all believers) cannot survive and be holy apart from the vine. My spirit is indeed subject to me, but even more subject to the Lord. I said that:
I have not said, that I can never control the prophesies but I have said at times (rarely) there is so much unction I can resist it. Most times I can just ignore the word He has placed on my heart but other times when I am deep in the Spirit the word flows almost involuntarily, not that Ive really tried my hardest to stop the word (I have never had the desire to do so) but I have to say when the Lord will speak He will speak. Who can resist the Lord?
I guess it only feels like I cannot stop at these times, because I dare not stop. It is a holy fear of the moving of the Spirit of the Lord. I am not in danger of prophesying while I am eating a sandwich or talking to the store clerk or anything like that, it is that after I have made myself available for prophesy and the Lord has consented and given me a word, the longer I stay in the Spirit, the loser my grip on the steering wheel is. Even when there is a heavy word on my heart, if I do not initiate it will not proceed. I can hold my peace pretty much all day even when there is an unction to speak, I can even ignore it and quench it (the unction) and quench the Spirit until I am completely numb to it but honestly, I would rather not. (I think I have learnt my lesson in that area).
James Gabriel Gondai Dziya
| 2005/5/5 9:25||Profile|