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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Where will the antichrist arise from??

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ReceivedText
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Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re:

Quote:
Received text there are great sites on this, I encourage you to go to www.preterist.org and also www.lightofthecity.com and http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/index.html



I plan on visiting these sites. I have some links for you as well since I gather you are a preterist. Here you go:

[url=http://www.pfrs.org/preterism/pret01.html]http://www.pfrs.org/preterism/pret01.html[/url]

[url=http://www.pfrs.org/preterism/pret02.html]http://www.pfrs.org/preterism/pret02.html[/url]

[url=http://www.pfrs.org/preterism/pret03.html]http://www.pfrs.org/preterism/pret03.html[/url]

I have pasted the Intro section below:

"Preterism"
Introduction
by Tim Warner - 011/2003

Preterism is the theory that all Bible prophecy has been fulfilled. The second coming, resurrection, and last judgment, have been fulfilled in a mystical sense in AD70 — the destruction of Jerusalem. According to preterists, we are now living in the "New Heaven and New Earth." The resurrection is not of the body. Nothing remains to be fulfilled prophetically.

The weight of the preterist interpretation stands almost exclusively on the statements in the New Testament regarding the nearness of Christ's coming. Preterists insist that such statements as, "behold I come quickly," demand that Christ's coming occur in a very short period of time, within the lifetimes of at least some of the Apostles. But in holding this opinion, they are forced to deny the plain sense of the details of Christ's coming.

Rather than Christ's appearing in the clouds in power and glory, with all nations of the world witnessing the event, Christ is said to have come invisibly in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem. Consequently, preterists hold mostly to an allegorical interpretation of the Scriptures. Not only prophecy, but even historical narratives in some cases.

The passages alleged to teach a first century second coming can be divided into three kinds. First, there are some verses in the Gospels where Jesus made certain direct statements about His coming. Secondly, the expectancy of the Apostles themselves, that they could live to see Jesus' coming, can be inferred from certain statements they made. Both futurists and preterists agree that Paul and perhaps other Apostles expected to live to see the second coming. And this expectation was passed on to the local churches in the first century. Thirdly, several passages speak of Jesus' coming as "soon" or "near." Preterists claim that these passages require Jesus' coming within a very short period of time.

Futurists need to address these passages, and explain how the Apostles could hold such an expectancy without being in error themselves, while maintaining futurism. In this series of articles, we will put forward the biblical scenario that explains all these things without calling into question the credibility of Jesus or the Apostles.

The preterism section is divided into three parts. The first part contains articles proving preterism wrong, and proving the biblical view — futurism. The second section deals in greater detail with the arguments of presteists from specific passages of Scripture. These are listed by referrence. The third section is an online debate, preterism vs. futurism, between Samuel Frost and Tim Warner. The debate clearly demonstrates the heretical tendencies of preterism. The most important article is the postscript to the debate, which summarizes why preterism must be rejected as heresy.

Enjoy the study. I know I will.

Blessings,

RT

 2005/5/3 0:46Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

Healingwaters wrote:
The abomination of desolation is the same as "the abomination that maketh desolate". The abomination was the Roman army, when the Christians of that day saw Titus standing in the holy place that was the sign to leave Jerusalem and flee to the mountains because great tribualation did come to that city.

If anyone would like to know more about the horrific and catastrophic events that took place at that time, read Josephus. In his Annals of Jewish history he will tell you of eye witness accounts of what happened then, and also what was taking place in the clouds and other signs that were taking place before that great and notable Day of the LORD. I believe God had this man Josephus write these accounts. There is one small paragraph that speaks of Jesus when He was alive in that day.



Interesting, the reference to the "Annals of Jewish History". May I recomend that this space be watched, till fulfillment:

[url="https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5497&forum=36"]The Future History of the Church[/url], for a Messianic take on these events.


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Aaron Ireland

 2005/5/3 8:30Profile
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Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

IRONMAN wrote:
I'm doing what God told me to do, warn of the impending tribulation.

Be ye ready brethren



Amen... :cry:


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Aaron Ireland

 2005/5/3 8:31Profile
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Thankyou Aaron for your timely inpute.


In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2005/5/3 12:02Profile









 Re:

Taco commented: Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As I understand the Revelation there must be a one world currency with people receiving the mark on hand or forehead in order to participate.
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This is only one, very literalistic, understanding of the 13th chapter of Revelation. The verse following (14:1) speaks of those "having his Father's name written in their foreheads". Very few take that verse literaly.


Taco, This is interesting. Do you interpret Genesis literally?

Bub

 2005/5/3 12:25
taco
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


 Re:

Quote:
Taco, This is interesting. Do you interpret Genesis literally?



Well, I think that Genisis is written in a style that suggests a literal reading, whereas revelation is prophetic and , as I see it, full of symbolisim. I don't expect to see beasts literaly rising up out of the sea to devour me. but I have often seen 'beasts' outwardly looking like lambs but speaking words that come from a 'beast like' heart. This type of imagery is easy (IMHO) to see.

But, while there is deep meaning in the stories, Genesis is a history that fits in with the rest of the Scripture record.

In relation to the first three chapters of Genesis, I am very open. I am open to the fact that each day may have been a long period of time. I am open to the gap theory, although I can't see it. I don't have all the answers but I do know that what is revealed is revealed for us to take heed of. As with revelation and other prophetic scriptures.

Somtimes people seek to use the fact that some of the scripture is symbolic to do away with its claims on us. But this won't do. Christ's parables are obvioulsy symbolic. We are not literaly sheep that are lost, nor are we literaly wheat growing up with tares along side us. But these parables must have [i]some[/i] meaning for us.

 2005/5/3 13:20Profile









 Re:

Taco, Thanks for your response. I guess I see Genesis as a response by early man (Hebrew) to the age old questions of "where did we come from? and how did we get here?" There is lots of good in it but it is written by people who had little knowledge and understanding of the earth and almost no understanding of the sciences.

Also, Revelation as interpreted by many in the Church makes little sense to me. So, Karl, thanks for making some sense of it for me. The preterist point of view, while I need to learn more about it, is leading me to think that Revelation may not be just a bunch of fantastic, fatalistic mumbo jumbo.

Bubbaguy

 2005/5/3 13:45
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

Karl
that's IRONMAN (in caps please) 8-) I'll find you the scripture in time.


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Farai Bamu

 2005/5/4 0:31Profile
ReceivedText
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Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re: Healingwaters

Healingwaters,

Wow! I'm glad you sent me those links to your preterist sites. I have found:

1. The preterist view is unscriptural.

2. The preterist view is refuted by early apostolic churches.

3. The preterist view brings no culmination of the present evil world that the Bible says will be destroyed with fire and the elements will melt with fervent heat (didn't happen in 70 AD, check 2 Pet. 3). Leaves no "last day" in which God will judge the secrets of men once and finally.

It is not of the traditions of the New Testament church (Scriptually or otherwise). It is a new doctrine that was not recognized by the early church founded by the apostles.

I hope you have looked at the links I have provided. I am excited to hear what you think. I appreciate your stated willingness to side with the truth.

Notice I haven't phrased my opinion here using the language "your view", but have chosen to use "the preterist view." The reason is that we shouldn't make this personal since it doesn't help us come to the truth. So maybe you can use the term "the futurist view" instead of "your view."

Let me know when you are ready to discuss this. I can't promise a lot of time, but I will try to make do with the time I have. I trust you will do the same.

Blessings,

RT

 2005/5/4 2:30Profile
ReceivedText
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Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Healingwaters

Healingwaters,

Here is a quote from Irenaeus who was taught under Polycarp the disciple of John the apostle:

Irenaeus:
"This he does, in order that they who do [now] worship the devil by means of many abominations, may serve himself by this one idol, of whom the apostle thus speaks in the second Epistle to the Thessalonians: “Unless there shall come a failing away first, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself as if he were God.” The apostle therefore clearly points out his apostasy, and that he is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped — that is, above every idol — for these are indeed so called by men, but are not [really] gods; and that he will endeavor in a tyrannical manner to set himself forth as God. 2. Moreover, he (the apostle) has also pointed out this which I have shown in many ways, that the temple in Jerusalem was made by the direction of the true God. For the apostle himself, speaking in his own person, distinctly called it the temple of God. Now I have shown in the third book, that no one is termed God by the apostles when speaking for themselves, except Him who truly is God, the Father of our Lord, by whose directions the temple which is at Jerusalem was constructed for those purposes which I have already mentioned; in which [temple] the enemy shall sit, endeavoring to show himself as Christ, as the Lord also declares: “But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be.”" [Against Heresies, Book V, XXV,1&2]

"This is also the unjust judge, whom the Lord mentioned as one “who feared not God, neither regarded man,” to whom the widow fled in her forgetfulness of God, — that is, the earthly Jerusalem, — to be avenged of her adversary. Which also he shall do in the time of his kingdom: he shall remove his kingdom into that city, and shall sit in the temple of God, leading astray those who worship him, as if he were Christ. To this purpose Daniel says again: “And he shall desolate the holy place; and sin has been given for a sacrifice, and righteousness been cast away in the earth, and he has been active (fecit), and gone on prosperously.” ... And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: And in the midst of the week, he says, the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation shall be brought into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete. Now three years and six months constitute the half-week." [Against Heresies, Book V, XXV, 2]

"But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that “many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”" [Against Heresies, V, XXX, 4]

This was written in the early to mid 100's A.D. Doesn't seem to tote the preterist line does it? In fact, it doesn't even deal with preterism. Just thought you would want me to back up my claim that the early church didn't teach preterism.

Here's Hippolytus:

"For the deceiver seeks to liken himself in all things to the Son of God. Christ is a lion, so Antichrist is also a lion; Christ is a king, so Antichrist is also a king. The Savior was manifested as a lamb; so he too, in like manner, will appear as a lamb, though within he is a wolf. ... The Savior raised up and showed His holy flesh like a temple, and he will raise a temple of stone in Jerusalem. And his seductive arts we shall exhibit in what follows. But for the present let us turn to the question in hand." [Hippolytus, Extant Works, Part II, 6].

"Now Daniel will set forth this subject to us. For he says, And one week will make a covenant with many, and it shall be that in the midst (half) of the week my sacrifice and oblation shall cease. By one week, therefore, he meant the last week which is to be at the end of the whole world of which week the two prophets Enoch and Elias will take up the half. For they will preach 1,260 days clothed in sackcloth, proclaiming repentance to the people and to all the nations." [Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 43, 47]

"For he says, I shall make a covenant of one week, and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and libation will be removed. For by one week he indicates the showing forth of the seven years which shall be in the last times. And the half of the week the two prophets, along with John, will take for the purpose of proclaiming to all the world the advent of Antichrist, that is to say, for a thousand two hundred and sixty days clothed in sackcloth." [Appendix to the Works of Hippolytus, XXI]

"Then, when he is elevated to his kingdom, he will marshal war; and in his wrath he will smite three mighty kings, — those, namely, of Egypt, Libya, and Ethiopia. And after that he will build the temple in Jerusalem, and will restore it again speedily, and give it over to the Jews. And then he will be lifted up in heart against every man; yea, he will speak blasphemy also against God, thinking in his deceit that he shall be king upon the earth hereafter for ever; not knowing, miserable wretch, that his kingdom is to be quickly brought to nought, and that he will quickly have to meet the fire which is prepared for him, along with all who trust him and serve him. For when Daniel said, “I shall make my covenant for one week,” he indicated seven years; and the one half of the week is for the preaching of the prophets, and for the other half of the week — that is to say, for three years and a half — Antichrist will reign upon the earth. And after this his kingdom and his glory shall be taken away. Behold, ye who love God, what manner of tribulation there shall rise in those days, such as has not been from the foundation of the world, no, nor ever shall be, except in those days alone. Then the lawless one, being lifted up in heart, will gather together his demons in man’s form, and will abominate those who call him to the kingdom, and will pollute many souls." [Appendix to the Works of Hippolytus, XXV].

Blessings,

RT

 2005/5/4 3:56Profile





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