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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Forthright Talk on the “Non-Lordship” Message

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Joined: 2011/5/12
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Texas

 Re:

I hear Colin saying that some Lordship teaching misses the point of holiness. That it is more than just saying " Jesus is Lord of my life". That if we are going to have a standard of what a true believer is, it should be holiness not lordship. I partly agree with this. Paul says in Acts 26:18 that he is sent to open the eyes of the blind so that they may turn from darkness to light from the dominion of satan into God and that they receive forgiveness of sin and an inheritance amongst those who are being sanctified through faith in Christ. So he was not sent to make people who submit to the lordship of Christ ( even though that is what Jesus called us to do in the Great commission ) , but to raise dead people to life. Christ did say to be holy as I am holy and be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. So the standard is that, He doesn't say "submit to my lordship". But we all know the only way that it is possible is by submitting to Christ's lordship in our lives. Us "abiding in the Vine" . Holiness is the standard and measure of a believer, not lordship. So I believe the two arguments are intertwined. I do not think there is a huge disagreement here.

But Colin, I think denying all of the lordship teaching would also be wrong. Jesus did give us the commission to go and make disciples who will do all that I command them. That sounds like we are meant to go make disciples who submit to the lordship of Christ to where when He commands , then we move. Is this being proclaimed to the lost? Or are we drowning our Gospel message down to such a point where people aren't truly getting converted? We are meant to make disciples. Disciples who go out and subdue the earth through the Gospel of Christ.

The problem as with most doctrines of man is that it has becomes so flesh driven. The truth behind it is solid in my opinion, but people that propagate it are usually non Spirit filled men that have anger problems ( just my opinion from being raised in it) .

I really do not understand how some of these men teaching false grace and easy believism can honestly sleep at night. Have they become so deceived into thinking that they are have preached the whole truth of Gods word? Do they not care, or do they not know the truth themselves? Forget about the doctrine, just look at the messages that Jesus taught and you don't even have to be a theologian to see how different they are compared to some of this preaching.


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Travis Cunningham

 2015/2/18 7:14Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Quickly,

when you look at 1 John and all the references to sin, please see how many times its a verb and what the context is. Similarly the times when its a noun. It does give a clearer picture of what John was saying.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2015/2/18 7:53Profile
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 Re: Forthright Talk on the “Non-Lordship” Message

Hey Oracio,

I was reading your post over again and a couple of questions came up.

First off thank you for posting this excerpt from Tozer, it has been very encouraging and helpful to me. I will post it again for anyone who has not read it.

http://cciog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/I-Call-it-a-Heresy-A.W.-Tozer.pdf

I was wondering what your thoughts were on altar calls? I was a pastor of a small home church for the past 4 years until recently and in that enviroment it is quote easy to do a " altar call", even though I shy away from even calling it that. The enviroment of home church is much different and more intimate than an actual church. I just preached and asked if anyone wanted Jesus to come talk to me. One Sunday morning 3 lost people were there. They all wanted to accept Jesus and had heard the cost of discipleship and knew what they were about to do. I simply sat down with them and told them to tell Christ what they wanted to do. Without leading them at all they all confessed sins, repented, wept, told God they wanted to follow Him forever. Immediately after that we baptized them in our master bath tub. Now that to me was wonderful. But in a bigger setting that type of experience just isn't reasonable almost. But yet I see that type of experience happening in scripture almost ( obviously without the bath tub) . I grew up around the sinners prayer and I do feel as though it can be totally abused and lead many many astray. But I agree with you that it is not the main issue, just a symptom. But I have come to the point of believing that the sinners prayer takes the place of a broken spirit. If you are truly broken you do not necesarily need someomne to tell you how to express those feelings. They just come out in ugly/beautiful ways. And it has almost become easier to have them pray that prayer instead of deal with the conviction and brokeness.


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Travis Cunningham

 2015/2/18 8:42Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
My standard for conversion is simple through grace by faith we are saved, all I would ask someone after conversion is this question, "where is Jesus in your life" if they reply with a certain answer, then I know they that the Holy Spirit has begun his work and they are converted. Very very simple...

Unlike Lordship Salvation which seems to mix up justification/sanctification and seeks a perfection of sorts, that Christ must be Lord at the time at conversion, if you don't come up to the mark of the Lordship standards which is a low standard of no external sin then your conversion is classed as false.

What I mean by a low standard is that there is no chance within the Lordship salvation doctrine that you'll never ever conquer the flesh that deep seated internal sins of the heart, while I would say you can conquer the flesh that deep seated internal sins of the heart but not at conversion.



Okay, I think I get what you’re trying to say. I think it would have helped if you would have clarified like this before. It had seemed to me that you were espousing sinless perfection as the standard of true conversion as some do. What I understand now is that you believe sinless perfection is the standard of conquering the flesh or living a victorious Christian life. You believe a born again believer can live in total defeat in sin and still be saved, just like what Free Grace theology teaches. The difference is that for you maturity in Christ or victory over the flesh means complete sinless perfection in this life, or as some call it, a second blessing.

It’s basically a two-tier type of Christianity where you have believers who are living in defeat of the flesh or sin and believers who obtain a second blessing which is sinless perfection. Those who espouse Free Grace theology also believe in a two-tier type of Christianity. But for them you have believers who are not obedient disciples (followers) of Christ and believers who are obedient disciples (though not sinless or perfect). Both views are unbiblical and dangerous imo because they both provide an easy pass for professing Christians who do not want to repent or turn from their wicked ways.

This view of the “second blessing” says in effect, “Look, all sin is sin, so you have no right to preach against sin or question anyone’s salvation unless you are perfect yourself. Other wise you are a hypocrite and a whitewashed tomb or legalistic Pharisee”.

It seems very probable that some who espouse this view but who also admit that they have not reached this state of perfection can also easily be deceived into thinking they are saved when they are not. They may think that they can give themselves completely over to the flesh and still be saved because to them salvation is not dependent on them reaching this “second blessing” or state of sinless perfection.

So again I’ll ask because I’m curious, would you say you have reached this state of victory and conquering of the flesh to which you refer? I know in the past here on SI you've admitted you hadn't reached that state yet, though you've desired to do so.


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Oracio

 2015/2/18 9:07Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
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 Re:

I see many failings in what I term or of what my understanding of "Lordship Salvation doctrine" one is motivation.

Obligation is not the right motive!

another is the belief that repentance of sin is a gift that we offer rather than a gift that we recieve.

I tried for over 12 years to offer my repentance of sin as a sacrafice, no breakthrough happened, no victory over such sins as self abuse, Though I deeply desired to stop such sins and tried with all my might, my will power was just to weak.

I started listening to sermons by old Mike Pearl, like Spurgeon and others that Preached a Gospel a little different than I had understood before.

My understanding before was that I needed to confess and repent of my sins first so that God could forgive me, I was of the understanding that God does not look on sin so we must first rid ourselves of them by confessing and repenting from them. No matter how hard I tried within 2 weeks I was right back in those sins.
And with a theology like that it could only mean 1 of 2 things never saved or else backsliden, the old cycle of sin confess sin confess. Romans 7 was a favorite chapter.

But when I started hearing messages telling me to bring my unworthyness my hoplessness and to let God do the cleaning up, there was hope in that, even though I already felt to far gone to be helped.
And when I did that,: "the look and live message" as what saved Spurgeon as Pearl preaches, A breakthrough, a realm of Grace opened
instantly revelation of Scripture opened up,
My question of why Cains sacrafice that he worked so hard for by the sweat of his brow and the callus of his hand was not excepted ? , was instantly answered beyound my own intellect. and the ability beyound my own will power to stop such sins as previously mentioned I found after more than 12 years of personal failure (add:sin confess, try harder theology).

And that Gospel is open to whomsoever will, not just those whom have strong will power.

David Wilkersons key to understanding Righteousness or beware of Dogs: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=4531&commentView=itemComments








 2015/2/18 10:38Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Hey Oracio,

I was reading your post over again and a couple of questions came up.

First off thank you for posting this excerpt from Tozer, it has been very encouraging and helpful to me. I will post it again for anyone who has not read it.

http://cciog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/I-Call-it-a-Heresy-A.W.-Tozer.pdf

I was wondering what your thoughts were on altar calls? I was a pastor of a small home church for the past 4 years until recently and in that enviroment it is quote easy to do a " altar call", even though I shy away from even calling it that. The enviroment of home church is much different and more intimate than an actual church. I just preached and asked if anyone wanted Jesus to come talk to me. One Sunday morning 3 lost people were there. They all wanted to accept Jesus and had heard the cost of discipleship and knew what they were about to do. I simply sat down with them and told them to tell Christ what they wanted to do. Without leading them at all they all confessed sins, repented, wept, told God they wanted to follow Him forever. Immediately after that we baptized them in our master bath tub. Now that to me was wonderful. But in a bigger setting that type of experience just isn't reasonable almost. But yet I see that type of experience happening in scripture almost ( obviously without the bath tub) . I grew up around the sinners prayer and I do feel as though it can be totally abused and lead many many astray. But I agree with you that it is not the main issue, just a symptom. But I have come to the point of believing that the sinners prayer takes the place of a broken spirit. If you are truly broken you do not necesarily need someomne to tell you how to express those feelings. They just come out in ugly/beautiful ways. And it has almost become easier to have them pray that prayer instead of deal with the conviction and brokeness.


Encouraging testimony brother! Yeah, I’m totally with you on all of what you wrote there. Regarding altar calls, I think there are different types. Some preachers exhort people to come forward and cry out to God on their own without leading them in a “repeat after me" type of sinner’s prayer, while others do call people forward in order to lead them in that type of prayer. Of course if I had to choose one type I’d go for the former. But personally from my understanding of the Word neither type is necessary and both types can be misleading. What we are called to do is to preach the gospel in it’s entirety and purity, which entails repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ-Acts 20:21.


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Oracio

 2015/2/18 11:04Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 

It is a great mystery; faith is before repentance in some of its acts, and repentance before faith in another view of it; the fact being that they come into the soul together. Now, a repentance which makes me weep and abhor my past life because of the love of Christ which has pardoned it, is the right repentance. When I can say, "My sin is washed away by Jesu's blood," and then repent because I so sinned as to make it necessary that Christ should die—that dove-eyed repentance which looks at his bleeding wounds, and feels that her heart must bleed because she wounded Christ—that broken heart that breaks because Christ was nailed to the cross for it—that is the repentance which bringeth us salvation.
Again, the repentance which makes us avoid present sin because of the love of God who died for us, this also is saving repentance. If I avoid sin to-day because I am afraid of being lost if I commit it, I have not the repentance of a child of God; but when I avoid it and seek to lead a holy life because Christ loved me and gave himself up for me, and because I am not my own, but am bought with a price, this is the work of the Spirit of God.
And again, that change of mind, that after-carefulness which leads me to resolve that in future I will live like Jesus, and will not live unto the lusts of the flesh, because he hath redeemed me, not with corruptible things as silver and gold, but with his own precious blood—that is the repentance which will save me, and the repentance he asks of me. O ye nations of the earth, he asks not the repentance of Mount Sinai, while ye do fear and shake because his lightnings are abroad; but he asks you to weep and wail because of him; to look on him whom you have pierced, and to mourn for him as a man mourneth for his only son; he bids you remember that you nailed the Saviour to the tree, and asks that this argument may make you hate the murderous sins which fastened the Saviour there, and put the Lord of glory to an ignominious and an accursed death. This is the only repentance we have to preach; not law and terrors; not despair; not driving men to self-murder—this is the terror of the world which worketh death; but godly sorrow is a sorrow unto salvation though Jesus Christ our Lord.
- C.H. Spurgeon

 2015/2/18 13:27Profile
Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

There have been quite a few post on this since I last had a chance to come on a read and I just wanted to acknowledge them and give a short response as I still don't have much time at present. I hope to contribute more later if appropriate.

So very briefly, It seems that there has been a lot of misunderstanding between all of us and I think we are in general agreed on some of the main elements being discussed.

Travis, I concede to your point on the children of God. I was just trying to show how examples such as that can be used either way. My main point is that there is no clear scripture that says once you have been made a child of God you cannot loose that position, it only comes from a persons reasoning, which cannot establish absolute truth.

Regarding the Lordship salvation doctrine, I honestly am not familiar with this movement or doctrine. However I do know those who teach that you can have Christ as saviour, without having Him as Lord. This I reject as He is both Lord and saviour, so as Tozer said, 'if Lordship salvation means Christ must be both Lord and saviour, then yes I am in agreement with that'. I am sure that like any doctrinal movement there is a tendency to go to extremes.

Travis, based on your recent posts I would pretty much agree with all you have said. I guess the only point we may disagree on is that I believe it is possible for someone to forfeit their salvation, not by sin, but by rejecting Christ.


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Dave

 2015/2/18 14:06Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
So very briefly, It seems that there has been a lot of misunderstanding between all of us and I think we are in general agreed on some of the main elements being discussed.


Quote:
Regarding the Lordship salvation doctrine, I honestly am not familiar with this movement or doctrine. However I do know those who teach that you can have Christ as saviour, without having Him as Lord. This I reject as He is both Lord and saviour, so as Tozer said, 'if Lordship salvation means Christ must be both Lord and saviour, then yes I am in agreement with that'. I am sure that like any doctrinal movement there is a tendency to go to extremes.


Indeed, there has been much confusion regarding what the Lordship view actually is.

For example, brother proudpapa, respectfully I say that it seems you have not understood the position correctly since you have tried to pit Spurgeon against it, when in fact Spurgeon himself held to this same view as a reformed Baptist preacher and preached it in many of his sermons.

It is unfortunate that this view has been termed Lordship Salvation by it's antagonists. Many Christians have been afraid of siding with it out of fear that it may be erroneous because the term has not been around that long though the teaching has throughout redemptive history.

It is in fact simply as Tozer said, that you cannot have Christ as Savior without having Him as Lord of your life and bowing the knee to Him. As Tozer has said, we do not believe in a divided Christ. He is both Lord and Savior and author of salvation only for those that obey Him-Hebrews 5:9

The “Free Grace” teachers have been very clever in choosing that term for themselves because it makes it seem to some that we are against the free grace of God given to those that trust in Christ as Savior. Nothing could be further from the truth. We are simply opposed to their interpretation of God's grace.


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Oracio

 2015/2/18 16:55Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2850
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

This is a slight detour from the main topic but I just wanted to say thank you to proudpapa for sharing your testimony, the Wilkerson sermon, and the Spurgeon quote, all gems in my opinion.

I like what you shared concerning obligation, this does indeed seem to be a shortcoming in the "Lordship" doctrine in the sense that it can lead to this wrong motive of obligation for the believer and this can play into the hands of the devil who loves to lie to believers.

The great lie of the enemy will be that if you aren't fully conformed to Christ's image then He probably isn't your Lord and you should just stay away until you get it right. The Bible is exactly the opposite, we are to come into His presence with brokenness and thanksgiving. If you choose to trust God even though you are going through great temptations, God will save.

Don't let Satan lie to you that you must first get it right before you come to God. Don't elevate your faults over the cross. Don't make a bunch of promises that you'll do better but trust in His promises, appropriate them.

Brokenness is good, godly repentance is good, but let it bring you to Him and to rejoice in His embrace, there will be strength over temptation. Temptations will always be there but victory is in Him!

In Christ,


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Ron Halverson

 2015/2/18 18:50Profile





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