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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Forthright Talk on the “Non-Lordship” Message

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ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Oracio,

you make me smile in a nice way, really

Quote:
I don't think we need anymore clear proof

What!! So who are you again? I'm not on trial before you or anyone else here friend, you are not my judge. You stated a position and I answered. If you going to post something in the public domain its going to be scrutinised, which I welcome for anything that I even post.

Quote:
deliberate twisting of God's Word and doing word-gymnastics around it.

That’s funny, not ony am I twisting Gods word I'm also doing word gymnastics with it, surely that is worthy of a double badge.

Quote:
You also did that with James.

I really felt like I exegeted the passage quite carefully instead of cherry picking my favourite versus that justify my own theological bias.
Quote:
Again, take care.

Thanks you to, I'm sure we shall see each other at the mercy seat.

Dolfan

Quote:
Oracio's question and Zeke's answer are about as straightforward as anything I have seen that asks for a plain admission to grave error and gets it affirmed unequivocally.

This actually made me chuckle, you almost spate your teeth in your coffee in indignation!!

I had this scripture in mind Matthew 26:65-66:

Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death

Which I am sure is probably how you feel.

When I listened to this sermon:

Quote:
Steve Lawson – It Will Cost You Everything (about 11 min.):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JQOBMi4QS8 



I thought of all the Peters listening to the message, being stirred by a rallying call to lay down all and follow Christ, to be a beacon of righteousness in a dark and depraved world. And them proclaiming with great sincerity:

Matthew 26:33
Though they all fall away because of you, I will never fall away.

And people will applaud and shout glory, you making a stand for Christ. And Jesus turns around and says:

Matthew 26:34

“Truly, I tell you, this very night, before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times.

Thats not very encouraging Jesus, these men are you crew, they are your apostles.

And the Peters just to make sure there is no doubt to where their colours are nailed says:

Matthew 26:35

Even if I must die with you, I will not deny you!” And all the disciples said the same.

This does not sound like a broken man. He and his friends still thought that Jesus was a man to be followed and didn't realise that Jesus wanted more than that. He wanted men who so understood their weakness that he could give them his very own life to live in and through them.

John 6:53
Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood you have no life in you.

My dear brothers, Jesus Christ is everything! Everything comes from him, everything is for him. Everything points to him, the life that we are called to live is his life in us by faith. Anything else has its source in self and will be doomed to failure.

edited:formating


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2015/2/25 12:32Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

murrcolr wrote:

Quote:
Do you keep his commandments, has the love of God been perfected in you?


If I do not keep His commandments and if His love is not perfected in me, according to that verse I do not know God and if I say I know Him I’m a liar. Again, is that not the meaning of that passage and others like it?

Quote:
So why do you practice unrighteousness?


Again, if I practice unrighteousness I am not born again but rather am lost and on my way to hell. Read the verse again:
“If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.”1Jn. 2:29

I will also remind you of 1Cor.6:9-10 and Gal.5:19-21 which clearly declare that the unrighteous, meaning those who practice sin will not inherit God’s kingdom, meaning they will not go to heaven.

Quote:
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer - well is it possible?


You still didn't give me your take on that scripture (Rev.21:8).


_________________
Oracio

 2015/2/25 12:36Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

My whole point is this I cannot understand why people who are involved and are in someway influenced by the Lordship Salvationist Doctrine preachers happily gleefully point out the failing in others. They name them free gracers - easy believist and call them false converts.

At the end of the day Lordshiper, free gracer or easy believist - obedience has not been perfected in them, and as such the they don't Love God perfectly meaning that thier surrender to Christ Lordship is not perfect.

The whole reason why I won't say I surrendered to Christ Lordship at salvation is because I didn't and still haven't, until self is dethroned and Christ is enthroned I will never declare it to be so.

When the rubber hits the road Lordship Salvationist Doctrine followers have to rely on the same grace as the much detested free gracers - easy believist rely on.

Rev.21:8 - You want a answer

Justification or Positional justification is the "legal standing" we have been granted in Christ. We are justified when we believe in Christ from that moment on, God sees us as righteous. Although we have been declared righteous, the fact is that we still sin, even after we've been saved.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2015/2/25 13:56Profile
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Quote:
Justification or Positional justification is the "legal standing" we have been granted in Christ. We are justified when we believe in Christ from that moment on, God sees us as righteous. Although we have been declared righteous, the fact is that we still sin, even after we've been saved.

And that is the scandal of Grace!!!


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2015/2/25 14:20Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

murrcolr when those scriptures in 1John speak of knowing God, are they not referring to salvation, to being born again? What else can they possibly refer to?

Quote:
Rev.21:8 - You want a answer

Justification or Positional justification is the "legal standing" we have been granted in Christ. We are justified when we believe in Christ from that moment on, God sees us as righteous. Although we have been declared righteous, the fact is that we still sin, even after we've been saved.


I don't understand how that can be an answer, or an explanation of that scripture. Imo it seems more like an ignoring of it and not wanting to deal with it.

Quote:
The whole reason why I won't say I surrendered to Christ Lordship at salvation is because I didn't and still haven't, until self is dethroned and Christ is enthroned I will never declare it to be so.



If you have not bowed the knee to Christ and surrendered your heart and life to Him, and if self is still enthroned on the seat of your heart, according to the clear testimony of the Word of God you are not saved. That's not my teaching murrcolr, it's the Word of God. Again I will say, if you have a problem with that, you can take it up with Him and His Word. I'm simply a messenger relaying His truth.

For anyone else who might be reading this who thinks they might fit the above description, I encourage and exhort you to heed the warning given in 2Cor.13:5 to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith. You don't want to play the hypocrite and stand before Christ on Judgment Day only to hear Him say to you, "Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness. I never knew you."


_________________
Oracio

 2015/2/25 14:30Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: If you have not bowed the knee to Christ and surrendered your heart and life to Him, and if self is still enthroned on the seat of your heart, according to the clear testimony of the Word of God you are not saved. That's not my teaching murrcolr, it's the Word of God. Again I will say, if you have a problem with that, you can take it up with Him and His Word. I'm simply a messenger relaying His truth.

Friend - I put my testimony on how I got saved a few post back, God did a tremendous work in my life, there was a time that I would have said that Christ was Lord in my life, however after deep dealings of God's, I find self on the throne and that self is riddled with sin, it would hypocritical of me to claim to be under Christ Lordship.

What I am saying to you, is your no different, but you seem to be blindly unaware of your condition.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2015/2/25 16:15Profile









 Re:



Who can say hand on heart that they love Him with the same intensity as at the beginning? Who has not become lukewarm? That is the test. Christ warns that they are in darkness because He has removed the candlestick. Without it man cannot see his sins.

 2015/2/25 17:04









 Re: topic title

Perhaps this thread could be renamed :
Everlasting talk on the “Non-Lordship” Message

 2015/2/25 17:31
SonsofLevi
Member



Joined: 2008/10/21
Posts: 107
Richmond, Va. USA

 Re:



_________________
R. Evan Gombach

 2015/2/26 4:41Profile
SonsofLevi
Member



Joined: 2008/10/21
Posts: 107
Richmond, Va. USA

 Re:

Oracio,

I see you are farther along and more perfect according to your testimony than the following were according to their testimonies:

John Wesley
Martin Luther
Andrew Murray
A.W. Tozer
A.B. Simpson
D.L. Moody
F.B. Meyer
Watchman Nee
Madame Guyon
William Law
T. Austin-Sparks
J.N. Darby
Nicholas Ludwig von Zinzendorf
Samuel Rutherford
John Owen
Jonathan Edwards
Evan Hopkins
H.C.G. Moule
C.T. Studd
Norman Grubb
George Muller

This is not an exhaustive list but you will do well to see what they had to say on the subject and also to read about their lives.


_________________
R. Evan Gombach

 2015/2/26 4:44Profile





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