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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The True Israel of God by L. R. Shelton Jr.

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Joined: 2008/8/23
Posts: 100


 Re:

Rev Enue
I find your comments totally unbeneficial to this conversation. Please reconsider your approach.

 2015/2/4 17:29Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
I have enjoyed reading the different views on this topic especially what has been done in a "civil" matter.
I have been raised in strong dispensational setting and attend a very strong dispensational church. I have rejected this system of theology in recent years for many reasons, but mainly for its' inconsistency on the people of God, namely His church, made up of all the saints of God since Adam.
I believe it is extremely dangerous to assure the Jewish people that they are special because of their physical seed.
This is not consistent with the clear teaching of scripture.
This was not the message of Christ or His disciples. In fact, He told them the very opposite.
I often wonder how national Israel would receive the western church if we continued the message that Jesus had to the people of Israel. "you say that Abraham is your father, I say you are of your father the devil". What if the church lovengly emphasized that without Christ they are condemned and hell bound just like the gentile that does the same?
I believe we would be rejected like Christ. We would become a stumbling block.
I am not sure what the future of the nation of Israel will be. I hope that they will accept the Messiah, but the mission of the church is not to make them comfortable in their denial of the Christ of God. It is not to get excited about the building of a third temple in which they continue to blaspheme God by spitting at the perfect lamb that He provided.
If we truly love the Jewish people we will not give them any hope outside of Christ.



Amen. Our Lord and his apostles and disciples did indeed have very strong things to say to Jews who rejected the gospel. That's not to say they promoted the killing of Jews in the least bit. The first martyr Stephen comes to mind as a prime example. I'll share that example here:

Stephen told the Jews,
"But Solomon built Him a house. 48 However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says: 49 'Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. What house will you build for Me? says the Lord, Or what is the place of My rest? 50 Has My hand not made all these things?' 51 You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it." 54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!" 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep."-Acts 7:47-60

Sadly, when believers point out such scriptures to make this point it is misinterpreted by some as promoting anti-Semitism.

Like Paul said in Galatians 4:16 as he sought to expose and cry out against the error of the Judaizers who sought to bring God's people into old covenant bondage, "Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?"


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Oracio

 2015/2/4 17:30Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Oracio said: " We believe the Millennium is the present Messianic age, the "full" or "complete" time between Christ's first and Second Coming."

I find that postion biblicslly implausible. All the accounts we have of the Millennium age present an age of total peace and harmony between nations, people, animals , etc. How on earth ( excuse the pun) can the last two thousand years be considered to anywhere near approaching that. It is the complete opposite of everything described in Issiah, Ezekiel.
You would be better to say you are an non-millenialist. :-) There is no way you can even spirituallise the millenial Kingdom because it involves the whole earth.......this creation, not heaven.


The reason you see it that way is because we disagree on how those passages in the OT are to be interpreted. For example, I believe the passage in Isaiah 11 that speaks of a better world refers to the new earth that will be redeemed from the curse in the new creation, in the eternal state. But you see it as referring to the thousand years mentioned in Rev. 20. So we have completely different approaches in our interpretations there.

The passage in Rev. 20 does not speak of the new creation but simply of a millennial reign of Christ with His saints. The context shows that that scene takes place in heaven. Again, Jesus Christ is ruling and reigning from heaven with His saints. The Bible makes this clear.


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Oracio

 2015/2/4 17:51Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Heydave-

Thank you for your clarification. I feel exceedingly better :)

BTW- I have listened to many of Art Katz's sermons over the years (as pointed out by Greg) and I appreciated his approach as a radically saved atheistic Jew and his mission to the Jewish people.

He definitely believed that individual Jews need to be saved but it might take great persecution (which he believed would make the Holocaust pale in comparison) in order to bring this about. He further stressed that the Church's "rising to the occasion" in this time of trouble, by sheltering and hiding fleeing Jews during this time would be a trigger to bring them into the Kingdom.

In other words, he believed that extreme anti-Semitism will be **necessary** to bring Jewish people to redemption.

I am not sure how I feel about that and I used to think this would be impossible (i.e. that level of persecution in today's world) but seeing what is going on in Europe etc I am now thinking it might be possible.

But the Church definitely has to be ready.


_________________
Todd

 2015/2/4 17:53Profile









 Re: Acts 7:47-60



This account in acts 7 is purely symbolic and never really occurred
the way it is written. Something did happen but we do not know what it was. We must be careful to not read it according to clear and concise language being used, No that is just to throw us off.

As a matter of fact we must read the whole Bible as being symbolic and we should always create our own interpretation of what is meant by what is written. That way we can be sure .

 2015/2/4 17:57
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

I also want to point out that one of the main reasons why national Israel eventually completely rejected our Lord in His first coming is because our Lord did not meet their expectation of giving them what they wanted. They wanted an earthly kingdom with an earthly king who would rule over the earthly nations. Again, Jesus told Pilate He did not come to establish such an earthly kingdom at all.

That was never in God's plan. Dispensationilism on the other hand says it was God's plan and that the Church became a minor parenthesis because national Israel rejected the kingdom Christ came to offer them. That is clearly unbiblical though, and is not supported anywhere in the New Testament but quite the opposite is taught.


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Oracio

 2015/2/4 18:00Profile









 Re:

that a falsehood.
The Jewish people did not completely reject Jesus as you stated. The early church was almost entirely composed of Jews.

 2015/2/4 18:07
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
This account in acts 7 is purely symbolic and never really occurred
the way it is written. Something did happen but we do not know what it was. We must be careful to not read it according to clear and concise language being used, No that is just to throw us off.

As a matter of fact we must read the whole Bible as being symbolic and we should always create our own interpretation of what is meant by what is written. That way we can be sure .


The difference is that the book of Acts is a historical narrative account. Revelation and certain portions of the OT are part of what is called apocalyptic literature and there is clearly much symbolism involved there.

The Word of God is composed of different types of literature genre and we must interpret it accordingly. Otherwise one can end up with weird doctrines which is what has happened in many cases due to not heeding this simple fact. Here is a list of the different types of literature found in God's Word:

1.Law
2.History
3.Wisdom Literature
4.Poetry
5.Gospel
6.Epistles
7.Prophecy
8.Apocolyptic Writing


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Oracio

 2015/2/4 18:08Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
that a falsehood.
The Jewish people did not completely reject Jesus as you stated. The early church was almost entirely composed of Jews.


The vast majority did indeed reject Christ. At one point they shouted "Hosanna", but eventually they ended up shouting, "Crucify Him, crucify Him, His blood be upon us and upon our children!"


_________________
Oracio

 2015/2/4 18:11Profile









 Re:

If it suits your doctrinal position its all 8 points and if it does not it is allegorical. Makes sense,

 2015/2/4 18:15





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