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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Old Testament saints part of the Church?

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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2206

 Re: For tuc

Thanks for your input and the time you took to post it. What comes to my thoughts is that the Abramaic covenant is different than the Mosaic covenant. Surely no one can be saved by the Mosaic covenant because no one has the moral ability to perfectly keep it all. Whereas, the Abrahamic covenant is apprehended by faith. We can't compare Old Testament saints under the Mosaic covenant to New Testament saints under the New Covenant and grace but perhaps we can compare saints in the Old Testament exercising faith as Abraham did (minus the works of the law) to saints in the New Testament exercising the same type of faith as Abraham. In other words, in sorting through this discussion, why impose the Mosaic Covenant on the Abrahamic covenant?

18 - For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. (Gal 3:18)

Abraham got righteousness reckoned to him by believing a promise. New Testament believers get righteousness reckoned to them by believing a promise.

Thank you again for replying.

David Winter

 2014/11/28 17:26Profile

Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA


If the Spirit of Christ supposedly didn't indwell Old Testament believers then the phrase "the Spirit of Christ within them" is even more intriguing.

Good point. It caused me to dig a little deeper and to be honest my theology on the Holy Spirit was challenged on that point after digging. There is indeed a strong case for saying that the Holy Spirit also indwelt the OT saints, even permanently. There's also a strong case for saying that the OT saints were also born again by the Spirit. I came across quite of bit of scriptures that seem to support that pretty strongly.

That said, what is clear is that at Pentecost there was a dynamic change between the ministry of the Spirit in the OT and His ministry today. Many scriptures in both the OT and NT make that very clear. I came across this quote by John Piper on this topic which I thought was noteworthy:

Before Pentecost the river of God's Spirit blessed the people of Israel and was their very life. But after Pentecost the power of the Spirit spread out to light the whole world. None of the benefits enjoyed in the pre-Pentecostal days were taken away. But ten billion kilowatts were added to enable the church to take the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ to every tongue and tribe and nation.

So here's my answer to why the experience of the Old Testament saints is valuable for us today. If these saints experienced privileges and powers in the Holy Spirit before the dam was opened, how much more should we in these billion kilowatt days experience these things or more. A survey of Old Testament spiritual experience is needed to wake us up to our privileges in these last days that were inaugurated at Pentecost. The church today is so sleepy that some of us have even fallen behind the Old Testament saints in our appropriation of what the Spirit has to give.



 2014/11/28 22:42Profile

Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1865


amen to what piper has said that's how I would have put it but not a eloquent .
I remember art Kats say that none of us would come close to the righteousness' that was in job

 2014/12/2 3:47Profile

Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri


The OT saints were justified by faith just like we are. They looked forward to Christ and we look back to His atoning death and resurrection. I look forward to the day when I will be with Christ and united with all the OT saints as one under Christ. How glorious it will be! Until then we must occupy until He comes, being filled with the Spirit and being busy about the Father's business, sharing the gospel at every opportunity.

I think Oracio is right here. We are told that Abraham was declared righteous by faith. In fact, we are told that we are to follow after this example of faith. Jesus said that Abraham rejoiced to see His day, and saw it, and was glad. The same would be true of other OT saints. Remember that Moses and Elijah stood with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. It is also written that we now have access to that which these prophets longed to see but could only anticipate, the atoning work of Christ and salvation through His sacrifice.


 2014/12/3 10:00Profile

Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


It has always been gods desire to have a family made in his own image founded in love
The promises he made with abram are the blessings we have today
If it were not for the first covenant we would not know what sin is and would not know that we cannot be righteous
If it Were not for the second covenant we would Not know of a man called jesus who could be rightous
God in his wisdom made both covenants
Both were needed
But now is the covenant of love
The love of god and jesus his son
Both jew and gentile one man and one body in christ
Us gentiles were grafted into the one true and natural olive tree
No longer aliens to the Commonwealth of israel and having no god and no promises
Now we are joint heirs
Thank you god and jesus
One family in god through jesus your son

 2014/12/3 23:41Profile

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