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MrBillPro
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3326
Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Oracio....I think we need to be careful not to downplay the need for church discipline when adultery is committed in a church. Sadly many churches these days do downplay that need and allow ministers to keep ministering shortly after they commit adultery.


Your right! We as the Church, should never set and be taught by a Pastor that has committed adultery, forgive him? yes!

The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so ... Romans 8:7


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Bill

 2014/11/25 12:09Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Some brethren have stated that in Matt.19 Christ says it was MOSES that permitted divorce, not Christ. But our Lord says there in verse 9,

"And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."

He says "I" say, not Moses. I'm reminded of the sermon on the mount where Christ says multiple times, "But I say to you..." making it clear that His words are binding, and making a distinction between the peoples' misunderstanding of God's Word and what God's truth actually was.

Also, I don't think it is correct to say that the exception clause only applied in the Old Covenant under the Mosaic law. Some try to apply that kind of reasoning to many of Christ's other teachings like in the sermon on the mount. I'm sure we would agree that we cannot say the sermon on the mount is not applicable to us today.


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Oracio

 2014/11/25 13:41Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5679
NC, USA

 Re:

Michael wrote:

"Did David keep on committing adultery? Was Bathsheba's husband Uriah still alive when David was forgiven?

No-- but david is the one who had him killed! You seem to be suggesting that if an adulterer wants to be forgiven he would be better off if he kills the spouse of the person he is committing adultery with. That way he can keep on living with the woman. Whoa.


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Todd

 2014/11/25 14:18Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1809


 Re:

Quote:
He says "I" say, not Moses. I'm reminded of the sermon on the mount where Christ says multiple times, "But I say to you..." making it clear that His words are binding, and making a distinction between the peoples' misunderstanding of God's Word and what God's truth actually was.



here AND condition means both the previous verse and current verse should be true. Which means Moses permitted because of HARD heart AND even if your heart is HARD, I say to you that you can divorce only when there is an adultery.

In SERMON ON THE MOUNT whereever Jesus used 'but I', he increased the standard than what Moses laid. Example if murder was considered sin then Jesus raised the standard to even anger. But here JESUS was only telling what Moses has already said, we cannot even compare the two.

In Matthew 19, starting from verse 7 to 9, is an answer to why Jesus is not allowing Divorce but Moses permitted it. How on earth will Jesus answer such a question permitting divorce? The answer then will negate the purpose of question.

I also gave a clear explanation in my previous post on why in new covenant we do not have divorce. It is because our heart is not hard. We have a heart of flesh. My explanation is in line with Luke 16 -18.

I have edited this post as I have not written it in write spirit. I have removed certain lines that was used for challenging rather than edifying. Forgive me.


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Sreeram

 2014/11/25 20:05Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1809


 Re:

[Edited to remove certain sentences which were not written in right spirit]

I strongly believe that there is no divorce and remarriage in New Covenant based on what Jesus said in Matthew 19 and Luke 16:18. But that does not mean that I am one of those who is asking remarried couples to separate and be united with their X or live alone. We have to see each and every thing case by case. But as far as I see people here who support remarriage are twisting God's word to allow Divorce in New Covenant. Which is unscriptural.

For example there are many people who come to Christ after they are divorced and remarried. We cannot ask them to separate because God overlooks the time of Ignorance.

But what if a believer who claims to follow Jesus and live a new covenant life, marries a women and the women leaves him, how do we handle this? See let us look into the root of all this Divorce between born again believers.

First they do not seek God's will in Marriage. If they really regard marriage as highly as they believe then they should have seeked God's will in it. When I stood in my marriage, I was praying that Lord if it is not your will for me to marry this girl, then stop the wedding even at the very last minute, I am fine with it. How many can honestly say that they were seeking God's will in their marriage with such a radical stand?

The second reason is, giving space for God in marriage. I believe if even Husband or wife was continuously seeking Lord in their marriage then their marriage will be saved (1 Cor 7:14). Many broken marriages are due to not letting God repair the marriage. I know many here will disagree with what I said here but it is based on what Paul said in 1 Cor 7:14.


Please do not consider my post offensive, the purpose of my post is, we all miss to include God in our marriage and then blame his command for being to hard to follow. I am not here to say I am better than someone here or have a better wife. It is all about letting God in our marriage do his work everyday.

Again it is a very sensitive subject, please forgive me if I have hurt anyone. We cannot correct the past but we can agree God's word. God's word is always true, it is men who fall short by not seeking his Grace. We cannot reduce the standard of his word because we fall. Let us accept our shortcomings and keep the Lord's standard the same.

Now I know a man of God whose son missed to seek God's will in his marriage. He had a failed marriage and now he has divorced her because she is interested in another man. Now the man of God is looking for a bride for his divorced son. To me you have to choose the better of 2 evils, you know your son is young (30), there is no way he is going to live a pious life all his remaining days without falling in Adultery. So it is better to remarry him to a girl so that he may at least not commit adultery with many women. Or God may have mercy on him to overlook his time of Ignorance when he married without seeking God's will. Though I know this Man of God is strong in God's word, I believe he will take a realistic stand. That is why we need to see case by case. But we cannot reduce God's standard in General.


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Sreeram

 2014/11/25 20:34Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5679
NC, USA

 Re:

Sree wrote:

"But as far as I see people here who support remarriage are twisting God's word to allow Divorce in New Covenant."

I don't think anyone here supports remarriage or believes that God allows divorce. I think scripture is pretty clear that this is not allowed (except for the exceptions).

However, there are many things that scripture does not allow that Christians do on an almost daily basis.

There are some who seem to believe that a divorced Christian who remarries will burn in hell.

The question is whether God will forgive such a person, like He forgave David.


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Todd

 2014/11/26 6:19Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1809


 Re:

Quote:

There are some who seem to believe that a divorced Christian who remarries will burn in hell.

The question is whether God will forgive such a person, like He forgave David.


Let us not go till the sin of David. Let us first take his life. David was the worthiest man found in whole of Israel to become King. God Called him the man from his own heart. Such a person will not even qualify to become a Decon in Church planted by Paul. Why? because he had multiple wives. Paul clearly says an Elder or Decon should be a husband of one wife. The New covenant standard is so high. I am sure Paul won't even let David to be a speaker in his Church.

Jesus said the least saint in New Covenant is greater than the greatest man in Old Covenant (John the Baptist). New Covenant life is not just being Forgiven and going to heaven. It is to live a life of Jesus on this earth by his Grace. So having or taking a old Covenant man as an example for certain sins is not at all wise. Because his life is not at all a standard for us. We can look at certain aspects of his life and be encouraged from it. But we need to overlook at their sins, because they are not prevleged like us. They do not have God's spirit dwelling in them like a New Covenant believer.

All the Pastors or Christians in general who after committing Adultery take the name of David as an example are still living an Old Covenant life. They have neither understood nor tasted the New Covenant life.


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Sreeram

 2014/11/26 6:44Profile









 Re: old Covenant

Quote:

So having or taking a old Covenant man as an example for certain sins is not at all wise. Because his life is not at all a standard for us. We can look at certain aspects of his life and be encouraged from it. But we need to overlook at their sins, because they are not prevleged like us. They do not have God's spirit dwelling in them like a New Covenant believer.



WOW!!! I am in 100% agreement with Sree on this statemant.

 2014/11/26 6:52
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
In SERMON ON THE MOUNT whereever Jesus used 'but I', he increased the standard than what Moses laid. Example if murder was considered sin then Jesus raised the standard to even anger. But here JESUS was only telling what Moses has already said, we cannot even compare the two.


Brother, maybe you, like me, had forgotten about or overlooked Matt.5:31-32:

"Furthermore it has been said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery."

So Jesus then increased the standard and enforced the "exception".

Someone else who posted also forgot about this passage and said only Matt.19:9 hints at permitting divorce in case of fornication.

I was looking into this topic last night a bit in-depth and may soon post a lengthier response on interpreting certain passages.


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Oracio

 2014/11/26 11:14Profile
dfella
Member



Joined: 2010/7/9
Posts: 295
Canton, Michigan

 Re:

I have some thoughts that I have pondered over the years that I would like us to consider.

What or Who makes two people one flesh? The act of marriage, marrying, or getting married? A priest, pastor, justice of the peace?

What is the prerequisite for a man and woman coming together in the bond of matrimony?

What makes a one flesh union no longer one but two? A man, a woman, a husband, a wife, a priest, a judge, a piece of paper?

There are only TWO places in the New Testament that speak of what a marriage covenant is, consists of, and the requirements. Taken from Genesis 2:22-24

Matthew 19:4-6 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, (5) And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? (6) Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath JOINED together, let not man put asunder.

Mark 10:6-9 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. (7) For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; (8) And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. (9) What therefore God hath JOINED together, let not man put asunder.

Look at the word JOINED. It is the Greek word "Suzeugnumi"
G4801 and it is only used in these two verses of scripture Matthew 19:6 and Mark 10:9.

It means to yoke together, conjoin, join together.

God is the ONLY One who makes two people one flesh THROUGH Suzeugnumi JOINING. Marriage, marrying, or to marry does not join two people. A priest, Pastor, Justice of the Peace, or a Marriage License does not make two people one flesh.

A person can marry 50 times, but how many times will God actually JOIN them to whom they are marrying?

When God made me and my wife one flesh He no longer sees two people but one. When He sees me, He sees her, when He looks at her, He sees me.

Who does the two above scriptures say that a man is leaving in order to be joined to a wife? Another wife? No, it says he leaves his mother and father, not his first, second, third, or fiftieth wife.

The scriptures are clear that what God has JOINED, no man, husband, wife, clergy, or a divorce judgement can separate.

What does the bible actually say that will make the one flesh covenant no longer one? Only death.

1 Corinthians 7:39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

Romans 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

When it comes to divorce many like to hang their hat on the exception clause in Matthew 19 which states fornication as the exception.

The number one reason people abandon their marriage is because they say, "I do not love him/her anymore" or, "We've grown apart", "We fell out of love" and they use Matthew 19:9 to support their decision.

As a result of what has happened in our marriage we have been exposed to numerous ministries, people, testimonies, of thousands of people all over the world who have shared their experiences.

These experiences are from both sides, meaning the one who left, cheated, committed adultery... AND those who were abandoned. In many of the cases and testimonies I have personally heard MYSELF, those who applied Matthew 19:9 saying that they left was because their mate had been unfaithful were ZERO. They left for ONE reason and that was to fulfill the lust of their flesh.

Please note I said many of the cases and not all. There are people whom I have come to know very well who HAD to leave for their own safety and the safety of their children.

The amazing thing about these dear souls is that they are not looking to find another mate but have committed themselves to stand in faith for their spouse praying, supplicating, interceding, and making up the hedge for their flesh.

I have not heard a few testimonies of marriages that have been restored from the most awful of circumstances. Why? Because people have decided to honor the VOW they made before God and stand in the gap for their mate.

While there are those who have a tendency to look at people who take God and His word at face value as being extreme, a word of caution.

Before you give people a pass and strike hands with them in their decision to divorce and remarry you better be certain that they are meeting the conditions YOU have set forth in their doing so.

And if you have such an assurance that YOUR conditions are right, you will take them before God and give an account one day.

For those who are putting all their chips on Matthew 19:9, do not forget about Mark 10:10-12 and Luke 16:18. The only difference between these 3 accounts is the loophole and I say this from experience because I searched high and low for a way out of my marriage.

I do not say this lightly or carelessly, this is of the utmost seriousness.




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David Fella

 2014/11/26 11:24Profile





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