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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Did Jesus really Die as a Substitute for our Sins?- by Michael Brown

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brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

woho we,,im hearing you Oraco

One only needs to read through the book to the Hebrews ,it literally and clearly stats the Jesus was a high priest according to the order of mekeseldek.

And and instead of the old offering to god ,the high priest Jesus offered him self once as final sin offering ,hence is why he is called the lamb of god .

The Innocent for the guilty .The spotless for the stained .The righteousness for the unrighteous .

The is clear as crystal ,Jesus perfect righteous, WHO
is called the righteousness of god is imputed to us who have believed on Christ ,and at the very same moment that his righteousness is accounted to us the sin baring Saviour effectively takes away our sin ,he sets us free from sin ,The work of baring our sins in his own body on the tree comes into effect

A two fold substitutionary atonement ,his righteous is substituted for sin ,and we become acceptable in gods eys ,,and the the wrath of god was poured out of Jesus ,he was bruised for our iniquity's , the chastisement of our peace was upon him ,the bible say says so ..

So hence he died for us ,in our place and was punished in our stead so we would not suffer in hell .

I wont post the scripture quotes regarding this topic ,but i know most here allready the scripture ,even if some flat out Deni the word of god to there own demise ,


Liberal christianity , is the stength of Satan,and the joy of demons

 2014/11/1 19:57Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Oracio, Penal Substitution isn't a 'clear essential biblical teaching'.

Second, the ONLY essential biblical teaching is this, "If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that 'Jesus is Lord' you will be saved."

Perfect doctrine doesn't give us access to heaven. The perfect person does. :)


Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons would also claim that scripture in Romans 10 for themselves, yet they have a false Jesus that cannot save; so do other groups and individuals who deny who Jesus is and what He did on the cross to save us. Many deny essential teachings such as the deity of Christ, His virgin birth, His resurrection and the need to be born again through repentance and faith in Christ. Christ's atonement for our sins falls in that category of essentials for salvation. Paul makes it clear in 1Cor.15 and other scriptures that an essential part of the gospel is the atonement of Christ for our sins. It's one thing to be a new believer and to be completely ignorant in some essentials. But it's quite another to reject those essentials once they are clearly shown to you from the Bible. Once you reach that point of willful ignorance and rebellion against essential truth revealed in God's Word, there remains no excuse.

"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."-Hebrews 10:26-31


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Oracio

 2014/11/1 20:04Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Amen brothagary.

Quote:
Liberal christianity , is the stength of Satan,and the joy of demons


Exactly.

LMH, your profile says you've been on the SI forum since 2012. I have no idea how long you'd say you've known the Lord. Even if it's only for those two years, a true believer wouldn't take that long to heartily embrace these basic essentials of the true Christian faith. I'd highly and sincerely encourage you to listen to Paul Washer's message titled "Examine Yourself".


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Oracio

 2014/11/1 20:16Profile









 Re:

Sidewalk said: "Then He says two important things- "Neither do I condemn you," since any accusation must have, by law, two witnesses. "Go and sin no more."

He acknowledges that what she has done was sin. And note that she does not ask for His forgiveness, and He does not offer her that."

If you don't see the contradiction of your own words. I'm dumbfounded. Jesus says 'neither do I condemn you' then you say 'jesus doesn't offer her that'. Wait what? I'm thoroughly confused. There is no indifference here. Jesus isn't saying 'no worries'. Jesus said He doesn't condemn her. Jesus is revealing the Father to her. When you see Jesus you see the Father. A Father not condemning His sinful daughter.

brothagary wrote: "Liberal christianity , is the stength of Satan,and the joy of demons"

There is no scripture to support your belief. Jesus said, regarding people that were different than His ministry, "For he who is not against us is for us." (Mk. 9:39-40; Lu. 9:49-50).

In addition to that, I don't adhere to 'liberal Christianity'. You can label my beliefs however you feel but I'm of the Christus Victor view. That God loved us and showed us the way.

Oracio wrote: "Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons would also claim that scripture in Romans 10 for themselves, yet they have a false Jesus that cannot save; so do other groups and individuals who deny who Jesus is and what He did on the cross to save us."

I would propose to you that if they believe in the Jesus of Nazareth, who died and rose again three days later and they confess that publicly, they too will be in heaven. Sure Mormons add some weird things to that "Jesus = Devil's brother". But that one lie doesn't void the everlasting truth that Jesus was God and died for us. God doesn't require an A+ in theology. He requires a broken contrite heart. Think Pharisee and tax collector. Which one was justified? Surely not the perfect theologian.

 2014/11/1 21:41
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
God doesn't require an A+ in theology.


Again, we're not dealing with finer points of theology here. We're dealing with elementary Bible truths you must embrace as evidence of true conversion or salvation; especially since you have access to multiple Bibles that all agree and teach clearly those basic truths which you willfully deny.

Another message that may be helpful is Ray Comfort's "Hell's Best Kept Secret". God has used both Paul Washer's "Examine Yourself" and this one from Comfort to soundly save those who've had false conversion experiences. You owe it to yourself to do some serious soul-examination my friend.


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Oracio

 2014/11/1 22:25Profile
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 708
San Diego

 Re: Continuing...

LMH, sorry about your confusion over what I attempted to say regarding the adulturous woman. As to an exchange of repentance by the woman and the giving of forgiveness by Jesus- it just isn't in the text given to us.

My point was that Jesus, in obedience to the law, could not condemn her without a second witness. He did not, as it may appear, tell her that her sin did not count. By telling her to "sin no more" he acknowledges that her behavior is sinful.

I do agree with you that He was revealing the Father to her, as his ministry every day was above all to reveal the Father to every one with whom he had to do. As in John 5:19- "...the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner."

Please know that I appreciate the discussion, and have no wish to argue. It should be our desire to grow in love for one another despite the incredibly varied backgrounds we all bring to this world-wide table.

That said, it would be helpful to us here to know a little more about you as your profile discloses almost nothing about you- even your gender. You have a right to as much privacy as you like, but openness facilitates our fellowship, no?


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Tom Cameron

 2014/11/1 22:40Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5587
NC, USA

 Re:

Art Katz has hundreds of sermons on this site. One if these is "Christus Victor."

there are differing views on the atonemment. This is understandable as it is a mysterious thing.

Lets not start calling people "unsaved" who have a different view than ours.


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Todd

 2014/11/1 23:38Profile









 Re:

I do like your change in tone Sidewalk. And thank you for helping clarify your stance, as I didn't see it in the way you elaborated. I appreciate the exposition.

As for privacy, I like it that way. Jesus went away. This is kind of my 'away'. To discuss ideas and thoughts that I see the Father demonstrating in my life. I'm also in community with a local church but...hey, we are all here because we are missing out on something in our fellowship (or maybe have something that others are needing). For me, that is depth of conversation. Wrestling with ideas, thoughts, and views that we all have as we relate to God.

Christus Victor view is slightly new for me and it's brought a level of depth to my relationship with God that none of the other views could do for me.

 2014/11/2 0:44
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

tmk with respect to ya ,,what iv read here is not about a difering view of the sacracical atonement ,,but denial of that very foundational doctrine wherby the power of regeneration lyes and moves . Weather it be the cause of or evedence of regeneration ,it is the gosple ,and it is what we are to believe to be saved ...

 2014/11/2 0:51Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

The Christos victus view is fine if it is combined with the penal view ,but with out at least that combination ,it is not an atonement for sin and totally defeats the purpose of the Gospel by denying the clear teachings of a sacrificial atonement ,by rights it cant be called a view on the atonement ,because it doesnt atone for sin in any way ..

major fundamental doctrines of the Gospels are lost namely propitiation and expiation ,with out these thing there is no atonement for sin and know power to save ,the Vail remains intact ,therefor know holy spirit is given .

It is a great perversion of the Gospel of Christ ,and a denial of the doctrine of Christ ,the sin barer ..

And i dare say results in another Jesus, and another spirit because it is another Gospel , and rather then eternal life ,eturnal death .

The message and reality of reconciliation of fallen man to wards god ,has all it tap roots in the sacrificial offering of Christ as the spotless lamb of god and the highpriest of god ,,this is why and how he is the only mediator between god and man ,with out this part of the Gospel ,there is reconciliation as experiential reality ,but only a figment of ones imagination ,no matter how much we can talk about god and Jesus ,it avails nothing ...

 2014/11/2 1:14Profile





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