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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What is the rapture and what happens before the rapture

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Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266

 Re: Thanks staff Member for your reply

It becomes very clear to me that you have not studied the Book of Revelations especially 4 to 20 and seen how they fit together.
Once again it is a middle east focused Book as is Daniel and Joel, they speak very specifically of the middle east area and not of America or Australia etc.
Cant find 75% anywhere in scripture
Jesus even says Himself that He is Coming as a Thief between the 6th and 7th bowl and He is speaking to His servants who God Himself gave the Book of Revelations to.
What Jesus states between the 6th and 7th seals, trumpets and bowls is profound.
Why cant Elijah come in the last 3 1/2 years while many who had obeyed Jesus fled to the Wilderness and those that didn't are still in Jerusalem, why cant he be one of the two witnesses.
Daniel himself stated that there are 75 days after the Tribulation ends
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

One most important thing that you are missing is this, in the day of Noah and of Lot Judgement came at the same time that Deliverance is taking place, so if you align with these pictures you have no choice but to agree that while the deliverance was happening God was judging as Joel and Isiah and Revelations states, the day God Delivers is the day that God begins to judge.
Rev 20, Joel 2-3
One picture is deliverance that happens quickly then judgement, Joel clarly shows the judgement as happening when the Lord Comes.
Lastly it is not my timeline it is Jesus
It says that it is the Kingdom of the Beast that is full of darkness and that they would still not repent
Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Look at what Jesus says between the 6th and 7th bowl
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

 2014/10/25 20:53Profile

Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266

 Re: 3 1/2 years of Tribulation

All of Daniel is focused on the Middle east area and started with the Kingdom of Babylon, Revelations again focuses on Middle east and the City of Jerusalem and River Euphrates etc
How long would you live with no food fuel etc?
The truth is this that life cannot physically go on for 3 1/2 years unless people are working, if no one works there will be no food, no water, no fuel, no shops, no doctors, no police, no hospitals, no ambulance, no fire brigades etc, there has to be a normality of life otherwise we would not exist more than a month.
The Bible even speaks clearly that there is trade at that time and many are made wealthy.
Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
Rev 18:12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
Rev 18:13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
Rev 18:14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
Rev 18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
So there is normality of some sort at this time for trade to be happening and for there to be wealthy and for ships to be at sea.
Without no one working there is no refineries to produce fuel etc.
Bible is very middle eastern focused.
When Moses was in Egypt the plagues etc were against the Pharoah and his people, Revelations Joel Isaiah etc speak very clearly of the middle east.
How will armies gather together unless they have people to work to produce food, water, fuel ammo etc
Yes there is some normality.
Is the Daniel Kingdoms the Islamic Kingdom that is arising now I don't know but it sure looks that way, remember the spirit of the Antichrist is the one that denies the Father and the Son, Islam does just that, it is Blasphemy to say that God is a Father and has a Son, certainly looks antichrist spirit and is certainly happening in the Kingdom area where Daniel speaks.

 2014/10/25 21:14Profile

Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1901


Hi Budgie
Where is the time between the trib and the immediate sun darkening and signs in the sky for middle east to come back to the time where they are eating and drinking and making merry?What effect does the trib have on these people.(they can be only from the middle east)
You could equally say that if the Church is raptured and then the trib you have deliverance and judgement taking place.
The Joel Judgement is not immediate "until" nor is directly after Elijah has left the scene.
Also if Elijah comes in the great tribulation How does his powers have any effect with the whole Middle East(in your opinion not mine I think its world wide) is in turmoil.?
Yours Staff

 2014/10/25 21:15Profile

Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1901


Hi Budgie
You cant have it both ways either the Tribulation is the worst time the world has ever seen or it isnt.
Jesus Highligted the normality not me.It was normal until Judgement.When the righteous were taken then Judgement came.
Great if the tribulaton was a holiday camp where their was food and marrying and party but its a time of starvation,scavaging for food war pestilence and desease.
Armies steal to feed themselves as always leaving nothing for the populations.The time of Noah and Lot is a happy prosperous time clearly not a time during or after the GREAT tribulaton.During the tribulation their is no buying and selling after all.
It depends on when you think armegeddon is.
The world rejoices when the the witnesses are killed.The ministry effects the whole world it isnt a local thing.
Then in your logic if its localized then when the sun is darkened etc thats local as well and his coming back is local as well.You cant have it both ways can you?
Also the preaching of Noah comes before Judgement when does the world get its final warning?
yours Staff

 2014/10/25 21:43Profile

Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266

 Re: staff member

I am not sure staff member why you struggle with the words of Jesus, if Jesus states that the Tribulation has ended why cant the Tribulation be ended, that certainly means that there is no longer any Tribulation.
Daniel states very clearly that there is another 75 days after the Tribulation ends, that is 2 1/2 months.
If people are still trading at the end of the Tribulation and making money and all of the produce is still being made and sold then there has to be some normality in a sense to be able to do these things, remember that this is all taking place during the Tribulation, Jesus is very specific that the Tribulation is in Jerusalem and surrounding towns.
I did not say that there would not be suffering in the rest of the world, I was merely pointing out the fact that the Prophecies are very middle eastern focused, where is the Antichrist based at, the Middle East, where is the battle , the middle east.
Many say Rapture but have never studied the truth of this doctrine, if you are not in the Resurrection you will not be raptured, the rapture means to be seized it does not mean to be resurrected.
You have clearly not done a scriptural biblical study on the word rapture and its timing in 1 Thess 4, otherwise you would know that it is after the Resurrection and after Jesus Comes with a shout.
Why not study scripture where Jesus Comes and where He comes with a shout and the resurrection and the order of the Resurrection and the Trumpet and especially the last Trumpet.
As Paul so clearly states the rapture takes place after the Resurrection and Paul states that there is an order to this Resurrection, it happens when Jesus Comes.
Again no where do you find Jesus saying that He is Coming before the Tribulation.

Why cant you just believe the words of Jesus, His own words were He is Coming after the Tribulation.
Jesus does not gather His Chosen to Himself from the 4 points of Heaven and earth until He Comes after the signs in the Heavens.
Paul himself even stated that Jesus will not be coming and we will not be gathered to Him until the Apostasy and until the Son of Perdition is revealed and even says that Jesus will destroy the Antichrist when He Comes to gather us to Himself
Tell me where in the Gospels is Jesus Coming?
Where in Revelations does Jesus come and where does the First Resurrection take place.
You seem to be so caught up with Elijah that you ignore the words of Jesus, if you say now that you have never studied the timing of the 2 witnesses in Revelations but you have your mind made up how can you be focused on Elijah but not know scripturally in Revelations where He comes.
Jesus fulfilled the first 4 feasts perfectly in the one same year when He came and appeared the First Time so the chances are He will do exactly the same when He appears the second time.
It is not coincidence that the start of the Feast of Trumpets is also known as the day or the hour no man knows as it is the only feast that begins on the first day of the Hebrew month, they wait for the first slither of light then blow the last trumpet and give a great shout.
Why cant Elijah be in the Last 3 1/2 years before Christ Comes to deliver and bring judgement as Joel and Revelations so clearly shows.
I believe God when He says that this is the First Immortal resurrection, it is when Jesus Comes and it is when His Bride has finally made herself ready and has finally been clothed and the wedding is come.

 2014/10/25 22:05Profile

Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266

 Re:hello staff member

Once again I am not having it both ways, I am presenting exactly what the Word of God says, most of the prophecies are middle eastern focused, look in Revelation and see the Trade that is happening between countries especially the Middle East, it even says that many are made wealthy during this time, it is not being stolen it is being sold,it even details exactly what is being produced, transported and sold, very expensive items, I certainly did not say that it was a holiday camp, that is your words, I stated exactly what Revelations says, I even gave the verses.
How can armies steal if you say the people don't have these things.
If you study for yourself in Revelations and Joel you will see exactly where the battle of Armageddon takes place and who is in charge, it certainly names the area of Jerusalem
Again if Jesus states that the Tribulation is over then the Tribulation is over.
Again I did not say that it was all local I merely presented scripture that shows that it is the Kingdom of the Beast that is darkened and Daniel so clearly shows that this Kingdom area is in the middle east. Joel also describes the exact location.
I never said once that the Tribulation is not the worst time that has existed, I merely presented scripture that speaks of where these certain events are happening especially the middle east.
It does not say any where in scripture that there is no buying or selling during the Tribulation, what it does say is that many are made rich selling to the middle east and it states that the kingdom where the Beats reigns can only buy and sell if they have the mark of the beast.
This Beats reigns in the Middle east not in Australia.
The two witnesses give the final warning in the last 3 1/2 years just before the Coming of Christ.
I certainly did not say that all events are local, I merely presented all scriptural evidence that shows the location of the events taking place, especially the middle east.
The two witnesses are dead in the streets of Jerusalem, the battle is at Jerusalem, the beast kingdom in Daniel is certainly in the middle east, pure scripture

 2014/10/25 22:27Profile

Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266

 Re: To Staff Member

Please Please answer some of my questions that I have specifically asked you earlier, I have constantly answered yours with scripture.

 2014/10/25 22:31Profile

Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266

 Re: To staff member

Hello staff member, I have most certainly enjoyed our discussion and am learning as we progress, it has become clear to me that you are strongly focused on the whole Elijah issue to which you cannot provide any clear scriptural verses for but can provide analogies, it has also become clear to me that you have not yet studied in depth the book of Revelations and the seals trumpets and bowls, this is probably mainly due to you being taught PreTribulation, this is something that I have noticed is quite common, strong theory but lacking in scriptural study and support, one can go on forever about Elijah but the main point is that his name is not mentioned once in the book of Revelations.
All we have in the NT is what is written in the other books

Mat_17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Mat_17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Mat_17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
Mat_17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Luk_4:25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;

I do believe Elijah will come again and I do believe that He will come again at the time in Israel when great famine is throughout the land, the same as the first time and I do believe that He will herald the Coming of Christ and the First Immortal Resurrection when He comes to trample the winepress of the wrath of God the same as in Joel where it says that He tramples the winepress at the battle against the Antichrist.

The Truth is this John physically came on earth in the spirit of Elijah to herald the coming of Jesus the first time and Elijah will again come and herald the Coming of Jesus where He will appear the second time.

Jesus only appeared once on earth where he was physically visible to all men, this was after John came in the spirit of Elijah.

If Jesus is to appear a second time then would it not be the same again, Elijah physically on earth heralding the second appearance of Christ the Messiah physically to earth where he again appears to all mankind.

If you say that this happens in the first 3 1/2 years that means that Christ will appear physically on earth at the middle of the 7 years which is the beginning of the Tribulation, literally you are saying that Christ will physically come and will physically appear to all men on earth as He did the first time He appeared on earth.

Jesus stated very clearly that He will not be Coming until after the Tribulation and after the signs in the heavens.

 2014/10/25 23:23Profile

Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266

 Re: To staff member

Please answer me this one question with scripture only.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Is what God is saying the Truth?
Is it the First Immortal Resurrection as God says or is it not?
As we have already discussed the rapture is the action of being seized that takes place after the Resurrection.

 2014/10/25 23:29Profile

Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1901


Hi Budgie
I have enjoyed talking to you as well and blessings to you brother.
When it comes to Prophesy in the mind of an old testament Jew it is very different than the way we would understand things.Jesus used analogy when he talked about Noah and Lot!
They see prophesy sometimes having multiple fulfillments and an ultimate fulfillment.If you dont look at the Elijah cycle the way the Jewish mind does then you cannot find what his role is.I have provided scripture to show that Elijah is coming clearly.To show what he is going to do then we have to look at what he did as John and how John was fulfilling prophesy(not just analogies but hard scripture)
After all the two witnesses are just an analogy.You only know that they have something to do with Elijah because of an analogy! between what Elijah did and what they will do.
It is scriptural though.
I have tried to bring a missing angle that is a mystery to many to the debate which cant be done looking at Revelation.
Many good scholars have so many varying ideas to the timing of happenings in Revelation but the Elijah Cycle is very easy to understand and easily timed.It makes sense that if the only person that is mentioned in regards to 1260 etc is Elijah that their is a mystery below the surface that the Holy Spirit wants to reveal.
I consider the timing as such
First 3.5YRS Jezebel/Elijah do battle with AntiChrist in attendance.Elijah Preaches that Jesus is coming again to take the righteous and in doing so causes world wide revival turning hearts back to God and importantly giving the world a last chance.
Middle of 7yrs
Elijah is killed,The world rejoices that Christ isnt coming but then in the midst of the celebration Jesus comes and seizes his people.At this time another analogy happens in the form of the Noah and Lot analogies and the woman at the mill analogy.
Last 3.5 begin immediately with the AntiChrist takes control
God pours out his Judgement on the world as a series of Judgements with the righteous out of harms way.
The disciples asked
when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
It looks to me that these two things are different with a gap between them.
This Scripture fits in with Elijah coming and Preaching in the first half of the 7yrs.The end of the age being the Rapture.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Yours Staff

 2014/10/26 9:53Profile

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