| Re: |
Sure, anything might work. The question is what will usually work.
How many cases do you know, or any of us know of murderers entering our homes, to arrive at a proposal that usually works?
We must distinguish hoping from planning.
I do not feel called to make a plan for when a would-be murderer enters my home. The variables are infinite. I leave that to the insurance companies. They are good at considering all the possibilities. And that’s why you need a wheelbarrow to carry their policy manuals.
In this discussion are we not drifting far from what Jesus intended when he taught to "turn the other cheek", etc regarding our response to enemies?
| 2014/8/9 18:18||Profile|
| Re: |
well Diane unwillingness to protect those who are placed in your care is condoning violence ,,just as if my wife was severely beat my son and i chose not to protect but said god will sort it out ,i became an an abuser gutless worthless worse then an unbeliever for i did not do my mini min duty to look after my own family
this is theology based on the full council of Scripture ,as Pall said it is all inspired sufficient ,to equipped us for every good work reproving and correction ,,,but i am expressing that through real life situations which a binding on human and Christian conscience,,,i know what im prepared to do sister if i was out you house and and a drunk dude knocked on the door grabbed you by the hair and started dragging you out side ,, i hope you dont mind ,i would by the grace of god through the spirit discern the situation and if my using force in a loving manner towards you would escalate the situation , i would swiftly do what i could deal with the situation and protect you even if it meant i would be hurt ,and at the same time i would stop the aslant from committing more sin and subdue him ,and appeal verbally to his conscience to convict him of sin ,,
sister we are not talking 3 other situations who wrote ,,we can but lets not go on a rabbit trail ,or use use that to some how build a straw man to build an out of context argument ,,just make another thread with tho topics im sure we all have biblical principles to apply to those ,,chalk and melted cheese really
now you misrepresent me by saying that im advocation a bent Christianity ,,and im saying that as a church we should destroy evil ,that is blasphemy in my eyse for a church group ,,and false again you say that im elevating a mission to fight evil over spiritual and moral duty's as a Christian,,,but that is typical of social media ,,being that we really dont know each other nor our devonial life ,,many people fall in to judgment because of that ,but we need to me careful all the same ,and strive to to not facilely judge one another doe to a hand full of posts
i wont even answer you last points but to say i dont as a Christian support unesasary force and war crimes to bring about justice ,,but i do know the powers that be are appointed by god as Paul said
| 2014/8/9 18:34||Profile|
| Re: |
Gary, my brother, you are implying non resistance to non action. To say that I believe in non resistance to evil does not imply I wound be non active if faced with a life or death situation to.myself or others. What would I do in such a situation? The Holy Spirit would have to give wisdom.
In an earlier post Diane shared how a young Christian man came to the aid of a potential murder victim by putting himself between the victim and the attacker. The young man shouted to the attacker take me. The attacker ran off.
Granted maybe not all situations line this will have such an ending. Perhaps this is the key. And perhaps the answer to some of TMK`s questions. To be ready to lay down our lives to save others if need be.
But what the young man did that Diane shared about took far more courage than drawing a handgun.
| 2014/8/9 19:04|
| Re: |
well i would not own a gun or use it so i agree ,,
you right not all situations will end like that testimony , ,, ,we can only assume it was gods power at work or it may be the more regular thing that happens some times when a criminal gets busted and seen they flea the seen ,it would be great if that is always the case ,,but is not and i wont rely on that as my only form of action to take and i really hope if you saw my wife being abused in the street ,,that you might have a plane b and c ,in case ,,thats take more courage then just saying take me or even pulling a gun,,if plane b and c needs to come into effect so be it ,,,,,,but let me know how you go if you in a situation maybe like a rape ,,,my wife a Little 5 foot woman had to cop punches by fending of rapists in kings cross when she worked on the street in ministry ,,yea let me no how saying to a rapists , take me, will go for ya ,,some how blain i got my doubts offering your bum to a some rapists will be very appealing to them ,,i dont think Jesus would do that ,Jesus made a wipe and drove them all out of the temple ,, that Jesus ,did not ask them nicely to leave ,,but used what was a necessary force led by the spirit ,to stop crimes being committed ,,he did that twice according to the two accounts in scripture ,and all his disciples saw him do it and he sinned not
| 2014/8/9 19:43||Profile|
| Re: |
On the topic of defending ones home I remembered this was posted by RDG and I just thought it was a really good reminder to consider.
(Post from RDG)
I wanted to say thank you Chapel for posting this article and providing the link. It gave me a lot to think about. I actually have found myself in the kind of situation where someone broke into my home its a very terrifying thing to wake up and see a strange man standing in your room, especially when your a fourteen year old girl. God is good though and faithful, He was with me then and I pray and trust that He will be always. I have also found myself in another situation that was equally as frightening to me. After I first got married my husband worked a night shift and I found myself home alone often. Because of my prior experience I was not really ever comfortable being by myself. There had been some criminal activity in the neighborhood not for from us so I had my dads hand gun in the house. One night I found myself being woken up to the sounds of someone rattling around the back door of my house. I looked at the clock it was still hours before my husband was due home from work. I was panicked and I grabbed the gun, put my finger on the trigger ready to shoot whoever was trying to get through my door. I left the lights off, but I could see a figure through the back window of the door and I remember shaking and crying because I was so afraid and I did not want anything bad to happen. I remember yelling at the person on the other side of the door to just go away or I would shoot them. I heard more noise like something being knocked over so I began praying out to God and asking Him to help me. I prayed and prayed that the person would just go away. In that moment the Lord just gave me this overwhelming since to not fire the gun. He just gave me the strongest feeling of calm and peace in that moment to put the gun down. I placed the gun on the counter and just stood there listening and waiting. A few moments later I heard my husbands voice calling out to me, he had gotten off of work early and did not have his keys to let himself in the house. He had gone to the back door because he had been knocking at the front door of the house for over 15 minutes for me to let him in, he thought that I would hear him better since our room was not far from the back door. It had been storming out that night and I did not hear him knocking at all. I had almost shot my own husband because I had allowed fear to rule me. We do not have a gun in the house any longer, and unless the Lord shows me differently I probably never will. I don't pretend to have all the answers to all the "what if" questions that are thought up and posted about, all I can say is that no matter what I want to follow Jesus(as I am sure all of you do as well). I trust that in the moment no matter what is happening He is going to be there with me and my family and that is really all I need to know.
| 2014/8/9 20:12||Profile|
| Re: |
I had almost shot my own husband because I had allowed fear to rule me.
You posted a powerful testimony by RDG, Mary Jane. MANY THANKS.
We can never underestimate the power of fear. We also can never underestimate our own potential to cause harm. I spoke earlier about POWER. And now I repeat what another has noted: WE ARE MOST DANGEROUS WHEN WE ARE NOT AWARE OF OUR POWER.
It may not be a gun, but it can be the power of language, status, privilege, money, etc. We can use all of these to harm another – even our loved ones.
What did Jesus mean by the metaphors “walk the second mile”, “turn the other cheek” in reference to confrontation with our enemy?
In what way is Jesus offering us a POWER-FULL strategy?
(I don't think this has been discussed much yet)
| 2014/8/10 7:29||Profile|
| Re: A Kingdom Orientation|
But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and and all these things will be added to you.
1 Corithians 4:20
But the kingdom of God does not consist in words but of `power`.
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption and the forgiveness of sins.
For our citizenship is in heaven from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory by the exercise of the power that He was even to subject all things to himself.
I think Diane's preceding post is a good segway into what I have alluded to on this thread. That is that we are part of a kingdom orientation.
If the Sermon on the Mount is merely understood to be a collection nice esoteric sayings by Jesus then we miss it. The Sermon on the Mount is much, much, much, more!!!
The Sermon on the Mount must be understood to be a pattern of Kingdom living in the reality of Christ. The Sermon on the Mount must be understood to be the practical righteousness of Christ ruling in our hearts.
In chapter 5 of Matthew He says `you were told` but `I say`. Here Jesus is clearly establishing His authority as King over our hearts. He is declaring a new internal righteousness that supersedes the external righteousness of law. He is fulfilling the New Covenant where He is writing His laws upon our hearts. This is why Jesus tells us that unless our righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees we will not enter the kingdom of heaven. The righteousness He describes is His internal righteousness that is wrought by the Holy Spirit working in our hearts. This is the righteousness of His kingdom.
Thus we see His righteousness is an internal dynamic that requires a new orientation of how we treat others. it is a new righteousness that requires us to love our enemies. It is a new righteousness that requires us to not resist evil by force. But overcome evil by His love that is worked out in a heart by the Holy Spirit. it is a new righteousness that requires us to pray for those who persecute us. This is the righteousness of His kingdom.
Thus the Sermon on the Mount is not esoteric sayings that would be nice to follow. But the Sermon on the Mount is the constitution, yea the blueprint, yea the charter of how we live as citizens of his kingdom. In essence the Sermon on the Mount is the law of Christ written on our hearts.
I opened this thread asking did Jesus mean this literally. Did He mean that we are literally to love our enemies? Did He really mean that we are not to resist evil except through His love?
The the answer to that question has to be a resounding YES!!!!!! Jesus Christ means literally that we are to love our enemies. Jesus Christ means literally that we are not to resist an evil man except through His love. Jesus Christ means that we are to pray for those who persecute us. He means this literally because as King he commands it.
But also Christ means this literally because we are citizens of His kingdom. As citizens of His kingdom we should have the passport of the Holy Spirit stamp on our hearts. We should have His Spirit working within our hearts to make us more like Him. The New Testament tells us that we are being transformed, yea even conformed into his image. As such we take on his heart and mind. As such we can truly love our enemies only in a way that Jesus ever could.
These are my thoughts on this Sunday morning.
| 2014/8/10 8:41|
| Re: |
I didn't know gun control debates were allowed on SI :).
Do we really want to open these floodgates?
Here is a novel idea...the pacifists need not own a gun and need not use any force to offend their families and then also let those who want to own a gun and want to use force to defend themselves...do so. And then close the argument?
Brother Blaine I wonder what good comes from some of these topics? They are about as fruitful as the C vs A debates:) Let people just believe what they want to and leave them alone. Just a suggestion as I have seen the sparks fly on yet another SI thread. I wonder what unsaved or new Christians think when they read this stuff and think of the time devoted that could have been put to better use...especially at a time like this when thousands of believers are being slaughtered. Who cares who is right, let's just pray for those being slaughtered. I hope no one takes this personally as I truly love the people on this forum, such a devotion to the Lord...you have no idea how much you all inspire me!!!
| 2014/8/10 9:56|
| Re: |
Mark I think.The discussion has been good in this thread. All be it spirited and intense. But good insights from the posters.
I believe this issue has a direct bearing on how we view those who are slaughtering Christians. It affects how we pray for those who are enemies.
Mark, certainly you have seen my posting Persecution Watch on the board.There is an open invitation to any in the forum to come and lift their prayers on behalf of the persecuted. We do this 3 nights a week and sometime 4. By God`s grace we have done this for 4 years. I honestly don't know if we can do a 5th year because my people are weary as am I.
This is why I am encouraging you to get your call online. Because bro we cannot bear this burden alone.
| 2014/8/10 11:18|
| Re: |
Here is a novel idea ….. And then close the argument?
You claim to offer a “novel idea”, but I suspect you know that your post is a classic “door closer” - with a ring of sarcasm.
This would be an example of what I was implying earlier regarding the use of power. It’s not the power of a gun, but the power of words. It’s shooting down - not physical bodies, but people’s ideas, thinking processes, and the possibility of growth as a Christian community.
let those who want to own a gun and want to use force to defend themselves...do so.
End of discussion! It’s a civil right, after all!
Awakened, did you read the testimony Mary Jane posted? I hope you did. It reminds us that we are not talking about personal private rights; lives are at stake!
Who cares who is right
Our private values affect lives. And when an entire nation holds a faulty value – huge people groups can be at risk.
I wonder what unsaved or new Christians think when they read this stuff and think of the time devoted that could have been put to better use
The unsaved care a lot about the church’s views on self-defense. And they would be glad to see such frank discussion. Outsiders are troubled about the conservative evangelical wing. For a good reason: History demonstrates that when the Church gains power, it also becomes dangerous – in the name of self-defense, and for the “cause” of God. I would like you to comment of my earlier reference to the two kinds of priorities: the extrapolation of evil or the flourishing of the gifts of grace.
Lastly, going back to your earlier post (the only other one you posted) – do you not see a danger in accommodating Jesus’s teaching regarding enemies ie, perceived threats? (which is what I think Bearmaster means when he uses the word "literal" - vs non-literal)
| 2014/8/10 17:14||Profile|