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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Do Moses and Jesus Have Equal Authority Over the Believer?

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 Re:

Travis,

Your post had some good points. But, respectfully, I disagree with your statement that one cannot understand salvation and the New Testament without the Old Testament.

An analogy wound be I met you in person. Maybe spend time with you and get to know you. But to understand you fully I need to look at your shadow. Obviously that wound be silly.

The believer who is born again and comes to Jesus need only the New Testament and the Holy Spirit to guide them. They need not go back to the shadow of the Old Testament to understand salvation or the New Testament.

My thoughts.

Blaine

 2014/8/13 22:59
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

It has been implied that Christ gave new laws in the Sermon on the Mount, such as laws against hatred and lust which were not part of the OT. But was it ok to hate others and lust in the OT? Of course not. Jesus was giving the true spiritual intent of the moral law so that the people could see they were truly sinful in their hearts and in need of a Savior. The religious leaders had twisted the law and focused on external performance; they had clouded the true meaning of the law and Christ was correcting their understanding.

Brothers and sisters, is not the OT also the Word of Jesus Christ? Who spoke through Moses and the prophets? What about the writings and the prophets? Are not those writings also part of God's Word to us today? For example, what do we do with commands like these:

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths. 7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the Lord and depart from evil."-Proverbs 3:5-7

"Do not enter the path of the wicked, And do not walk in the way of evil. 15 Avoid it, do not travel on it; Turn away from it and pass on. 16 For they do not sleep unless they have done evil; And their sleep is taken away unless they make someone fall. 17 For they eat the bread of wickedness, And drink the wine of violence. 18 But the path of the just is like the shining sun, That shines ever brighter unto the perfect day. 19 The way of the wicked is like darkness; They do not know what makes them stumble. 20 My son, give attention to my words; Incline your ear to my sayings. 21 Do not let them depart from your eyes; Keep them in the midst of your heart; 22 For they are life to those who find them, And health to all their flesh. 23 Keep your heart with all diligence, For out of it spring the issues of life. 24 Put away from you a deceitful mouth, And put perverse lips far from you. 25 Let your eyes look straight ahead, And your eyelids look right before you. 26 Ponder the path of your feet, And let all your ways be established. 27 Do not turn to the right or the left; Remove your foot from evil."-Proverbs 4:14-27

Are we to just discard those commands as just being applicable to Israel in the Old Covenant?

This idea of trying to separate our Lord from His Word in the OT is very concerning for me to see. Granted it is not as bad as trying to pit Christ against Paul as some try to do today. But it is still very serious I believe.

But there is another concern I have seen here, namely, trying to separate Christ from His Word even in the NT as not that binding on us; saying that God's Word even in the NT is not that necessary because it's more about a relationship with a Person. We cannot do that because God's Word reveals to us who He is. It can be comparable to saying, "I believe in and know Jesus but I don't believe it's that necessary to obey His commands". We know that's impossible.

David wrote, "For You have magnified Your word above all Your name"-Ps.138:2. The reason God places such a high honor on His Word is because it reveals His name, it reveals His character and purposes. Jesus said if His Word abides in us then we are truly His disciples. Faith comes by hearing His Word, whether reading it or hearing it read or quoted or preached.

Also, it has been stressed that the main thing for Christians today is to love God and our neighbor. Yes, but the Word of God gives us specific commands and instructions on what that looks like and what that means, besides the command to love God and love our neighbor. God knows that we have thick skulls because of the fall and we need specific and repeated instruction on specific areas of life and godliness. Otherwise He would have simply said to love God and love your neighbor and that's it, but we know He didn't just do that.

Brothers and sisters, we denigrate God's Word to our own peril. May God have mercy on those who do that.


_________________
Oracio

 2014/8/14 13:37Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Blaine: I guess I would put it this way. If a person asked you why they needed to be saved, what would you say to them? Could you explain their need for salvation without the record of the fall and original sin found in Genesis? If a person were to ask you why he needed put faith in Christ and why his own good works were not enough for him to be accepted by God, could you explain it to him outside of bringing up the contrast between the old and the new covenant?

The writers of the New Testament quoted the Old Testament writers over and over again as they taught the new covenant. There is foundational understanding of who God is that we find in the Old Testament. I think we also need to make the distinction between the rebirth and an understanding of what happened to us when we were born again. One can be born again without a full understanding of what is involved in our salvation. One does not need to study the OT in order to be saved, but one does need the OT to fully understand what his salvation means.



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Travis

 2014/8/14 15:32Profile
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 980
Pineville, LA

 Re:

Oracia,

The 2 greatest commandments are to love God and love people.

But Jesus also said this, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

The 2 work together. If you really love God, of course you are going to do what He says.

Also, the degree to which we love God is related to the degree to which we truly keep His commandments (and that digs even into our thoughts and intents).

 2014/8/14 15:48Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Agreed havok, first we must have the love of God shed abroad in our hearts through a relationship with Him before can keep His commandments. My concern is with an attitude that denigrates God's Word as merely ink on paper. I agree that the emphasis should not be on the ink and paper. But the words handed down through ink and paper are of vital importance.


_________________
Oracio

 2014/8/14 15:59Profile









 Re:

2 Cor. 3:2-3
You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of the human heart.

Brethren you can not forget the Holy Spirit. He quickens and writes the word on our hearts. Without the Spirit to open up the scriptures then they are nothing more than ink on a page.

There is nothing magical in the Bible in and of itself. Liberals can read the Bible and not be moved by its wondrous truth. Only until eyes are opened up by the Holy Spirit the Bible remains a closed book.

Also too it is not the words on the page that are mystical. But again the truth as revealed by the Holy Spirit. Otherwise what of those cultures that do not have a literate base but an oral tradition? These cultures hear the truth of Christ thriugh a gospel story or an audio Bible. But again it must be the Holy Spirit that opens up their heart to the truth.

My thoughts.

Blaine

 2014/8/14 17:18
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Brother, no one is denying the vital need of the ministry of the Holy Ghost to quicken God's Word here. But you cannot separate God from His Word that endures forever-1Pet.1:25. The Spirit works with the Word and not apart from it, this is clear in Rom.10:17 and other parts of God's Word. And no one is saying one must only or necessarily read the Word in written form, as that is only one way of hearing the Word. But nonetheless it is the Word of God that is declared and heard and believed.


_________________
Oracio

 2014/8/14 17:36Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 980
Pineville, LA

 Re:

We all agree salvation comes by faith and it is a marvelous work of the Holy Spirit. But faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

These words are the entirety of the Scriptures made alive by the Holy Spirit.

 2014/8/14 17:53Profile









 Re: The Mount of Transfoguration

Luke 9:28-26
Some eight days after these sayings, He took along Peter, and John and James and went up on the mountain to pray. And while He was praying, the appearance of his face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming. And behold two men were talking with him, and they were Moses and Elijah, and appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure, which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. Now Peter and his companions had been overcome with sleep, but when they were fully awake they saw His glory and the two men standing with him. And as they were leaving Him, Peter said to Jesus, "Master it is good for us to be here, let me make three Tabernacles, one for You one for Moses and one for Elijah" not realizing what he was saying. while he was saying this, a cloud formed and began to overshadow them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is my Son, My Chosen One, listen to Him!"

Brethren it can be said that one picture is worth a thousand words. the account of the Mount of Transfiguration out of Luke and recorded in Matthew and Mark, clearly shows to us the moving of redemptive history. It depicts a moving from the old to the new.

It can be said that Moses represented the law and Elijah the prophets. But they passed away. Only Jesus remained. The voice of the Father said. "This is My Son, My Chosen One, listen to Him!"

Here New Covenant authority is established. Jesus is the final revelation and authority that we listen to. His words in the New Testament are that which bind us. We are bound to His Yoke.

The Old Testament is a shadow of the reality and substance to come. that shadow and reality are found in Jesus Christ. Thus His Words and those if His apostles are what we obey.

The Father has according to Hebrews 1:1 spoken through His Son. Thus we listen to Him.

My thoughts.

Blaine Scogin

 2014/8/15 8:12
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 2556


 Re:

sounds great brother ,but his apostals also said all scripture is god breathed and probably jesus taught around 60 pecent of what was taught through the law and the prophets when it comes to moral teachings
the bible didnt say the old testamant was the shadow ,,but the old covent was the shadow

so if we ,as you said lisen to jesus and the apostals they point back to the scripture of old that what paul was refeuring to when he said all scripture ,,the bible is clear about that ,wether you are like me or not and favour the new testament or not ,the bible is still clear about that ,, i rarely ever quote from the old testament from memory

 2014/8/15 8:33Profile





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